POLL for Flag Challenge 162

Which is the best pair of flags for the challenge?

  • Entry 1

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • Entry 2

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • Entry 3

    Votes: 8 33.3%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
FLAG CHALLENGE #162: The Burgundian Roman Empire

In TTL the so-called Francian Empire has divided into 5 kingdoms: Aquitaine (inc. Spanish March), Austrasia, Burgundy, Italy, and Westrisia [the western lands from Neustria to Frisia].
By 1000CE King Lothere of Burgundy has acquired Aquitaine and conquered Italy, having himself crowned Roman Emperor by the Pope.

Your challenge is to create 2 flags that fit TTL c1500s (or equivalent level).
1 is for the BRE itself, 1 is for a significant territory within the BRE (and can be ruled by an external power).
AS the POD predates OTL heraldry any use of exact OTL local symbols is restricted, specifically the following are banned: Cross of Burgundy (saltires in general are allowed), Cross of Toulouse/Occitan (voided crosses are allowed), the Leopard of Aquitaine.
[EDIT: Imperial banners are acceptable for the BRE flag due to OTL HRE not having a national flag]

As this is a multiple flag challenge please limit entries to within 300x600px - you may include both flags on a single image file so long as the flags themselves fit into 300x600px.
Please see The Rules for details.

Submissions Open: Now
EDIT2 extension and size change:
Submissions Close: 21st March 2017
Voting Period: after 21st March

Entry1 said:
The Banner of His Imperial Majesty Lothere, by the Grace of God, Emperor of the Romans, King of Burgundy, Aquitaine, and Westisia, Caesar of Italia, Sovereign of Austrasia, Defender of the Faith, Protector of the Holy See

burgromefitted-png.312159



"Upon his final subjugation of the trade republics of the Italian peninsula, King Lothere of Burgundy had himself declared Emperor of the Romans, with a proper coronation in St. Peter's Basilica, being crowned by the Pope. The Empire restored, a practice taken from the Romans was put back into the forefront of military culture: the vexillum. Though no longer a vertically hung cloth for each legion, Lothere believed firmly in the use of symbols to show the strength of the Empire. As such, his personal war banner, a tricolor of blue, white, and green, was altered and used as the standard of the military, each blessed by priests and soaked in holy water, every soldier told that to lose the banner was to lose a blessed piece of the Empire's soul. In doing so, this banner became the standard of the Empire itself."

- Empire Reborn, 2012 Documentary

"...The reason for the existence of his war flag was his personal dislike of his father, and so Lothere preferred not to use a banner of his family arms when leading his own armies into battle during his time as Prince. The origin of the colors blue, white, and green, is not entirely clear to modern scholars. There is, in fact, a great amount of debate over them. Some believe they come from the idea of ground, air, and sky, and that Lothere, being known for his art and poetry, took to using these colors as a symbol of his dominion of all that he surveyed. Others call this completely ridiculous, and instead contend that it first comes from the blue-white banner used by member of the Order of the Shield of Charlemagne, a chivalrous order of knights to which Lothere belonged as Prince of Burgundy. This then, leaves the question of why green was added. Some of the aforementioned scholars that subscribe to the "Order Theory", as opposed to the "Symbol Theory", will either reply "I don't know," or propose that perhaps it was simply added for individuality, being that as a King and later Emperor, using the war flag of a holy order as ones own would not be entirely proper. A third group of theorists also exists, and while readers may wonder why there is such debate over something as simple as a flag, it should be remembered that the topic of the Restorer of Rome is one of the most popular for all historians, and nearly every historian that studies the matter carries his own opinion. Now, the third group are subscribers to the "Eye Theory", which holds that, given the famous legend of the Emperor's heterochromia, perhaps that is the source for his banner. Due several surviving paintings and reconstructed paints for a bust, we do know that, at times, Lothere was painted with possessing one eye that was blue, and one eye that was either brown or green; many believe it may have been hazel, and thus possessing flecks of green and brown. Assuming the Emperor was either green-blue or hazel-blue heterochromatic, it is believed by these theorists that he used this striking feature as inspiration for his personal flag of war, with a white stripe being used as a contrast between the two colors...

..There is also debate over the tail of the flag. Some hold that it was a short spike of only a few inches, while others report stories of it being up to three feet in length. The shape was a common design of the era for war banners, and it is possible (and likely) that different makers of the flags had a variety of lengths in use, based on how much fabric they had left to use. After all, it was unlikely that the Emperor was going to go around inspecting each armies' banner, and in effect it was the banner in itself that served as a symbol, not its proportions."
- Examining Men and Women of History, AP European History textbook, published 2005

"The arms of the House of Juvaire is simple, but displays the familial history well. Four Francian Crosses are used to show the family's ancient roots as lords under King Charlemagne, and the red saltire represents the family's Catholic roots, and specifically its veneration of St. Andrew..."

- Basics of Heraldry, published 1967

The Banner of His Royal Majesty Gaspard, Prince of the Romans, Dictator of Latium

burgromeitalia2fitted-png.312160


"...this title was created by Lothere purely because of the nagging of his heir, Gaspard. Being the Crown Prince of of the Romans, Burgundy, Aquitaine, Westisia, Italia, and Austrasia was not enough for the boy, and he wanted to show his ability to rule and create a powerbase of his own. Believing it could work to make his disliked son more popular amongst the people, and to create greater ties between the Italians and their Frankish conquerors, Emperor Lothere agreed to his request and, taking from both the merchant republic tradition of the peninsula and that of the Roman Republic, he named Gaspard Dictator of Latium, thus making his son the direct ruler of half of the Italian peninsula. Ever since, the heir apparent of the Second Roman Empire was been named Dictator of Latium. In truth, Latium as the territory rule by the Dictator, is in fact comprised of the First Roman regions of Latium, Etruria, Samnium, Picenum, Emilia, Liguria, and Umbria..."

- When in Rome: the Rise and Fall of the Second Roman Empire, 2016 documentary

"Prince Gaspard is said to have designed the banner himself, echoing his father's famed artistic manner, although this may very well have just been told as a story to improve his image. However, as the Banner of the Dictator of Latium, it became a symbol of the region, and even the republican movement that controlled the area centuries later looked to this flag for inspiration. The red and tyrian were used to represent the area's history as the heart of both the Roman Republic and the First Roman Empire, the famed "S.P.Q.R." taking a central place as well. The crest of the House of Juvaire is set centrally, showing their control of the land. Some believe the flag ended in a point, while others contend it was cut to be trapezoidal."

- Flags of Antiquity, published 1991

Entry2 said:
Holy Roman Empire

In this TL, the flag of the Holy Roman Empire went through a number of changes during the unification process led by the Kingdom of Burgundy between 700-1000. The first Burgundian flags were simple red and blue war banners, where both red cross on blue and blue cross on red were used. With the conquest of Kingdom of Aquitaine, the design was consolidated to a red cross on a blue field with a red border, fimbriated with white. The arms of Burgundy and Aquitaine were quartered on the flag.

This design was to last for more than a century. However, the conquests of Neustrasia, Austrasia and Westrisia in a quick succession added yet more arms to the flag. Then, instead of quartering the arms yet again, it was decided that each field shall bear the separate arms of all four kingdoms, with the arms of Burgundy in an escutcheon above them in the center. This design was to last until Lothere the Pious of Burgundy, the first Emperor.

It is said that after the conquest of Kingdom of the Lombards and the coronation in Rome, Emperor Lothere had an epiphany that made him devote his empire to the glory of God. This had profound impact to his entire reign, but also to his arms and the Imperial banner as a result.

Lothere ordered to clear his arms of all designs accumulated over the previous centuries, leaving only the red cross on blue field, bordered by red and bearing an escutcheon. To this, he added the papal cross, stating: "Only the arms of the Most High should stand above all." This would become the Imperial Banner for centuries to come.

Holy_Burgun_Empire.png


Kingdom of Aquitaine

In this TL, the Kingdom of Aquitaine was dominated by the Basques. Their war banners were originally green and red, often bearing the Basque cross. Before Emperor Lothere, the Aquitaine arms stood in the upper left field of the Imperial banner, bearing the red Basque cross on white.

The banner for the Kingdom alone, after Emperor Lothere, became a field quartered between Burgundian blue and Basque green, bordered by red to recall their position on the original Imperial banner. In the center stands the ancient Basque cross in red, on a white roundel.

Basque_Aquitania.png

Entry3 said:
Holy Roman Empire

In the early Medieval era Christian religious and temporal authorities clashed repeatedly for control of Europe's social and political institutions. This was exemplified by the conflict between the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor. The Emperor sought the power to invest Bishops, Cardinals, and other clergy, thus exercising control over the church; the Pope sought to assert their independence from the Emperor as temporal ruler of the Papal States, and thus their supremacy over all of Christendom. The two positions became increasingly intertwined as time went on starting with the Iurgium, a civil war in which a disputed succession erupted into a grueling, bloody conflict. One claimant claimed legitimacy via election by the Empire's senior nobles, whereas the other claimed legitimacy due to appointment by the Pope. Ultimately the latter would succeed and it became accepted that the Pope should have sole power to appoint Emperors and, though the Pope was subservient to the Emperor in temporal matters, the Emperor was a vicar of the Pope appointed to defend all of Christendom. Conversely, the investiture controversy was resolved in favour of temporal rulers, allowing the Emperor to appoint many of the clergy eligible to become and able to elect the Pope.

As Emperors increasingly leaned on the Papacy for support and legitimacy they adopted increasingly religious trappings. This can be seen most clearly in the banners used by the Emperors which, starting in the 1100s, consistently depict the Archangel Michael. The exact design varied over time, even within the reign of a single Emperor, before being set in the late 1400s as a light blue flag hung from a crossbar with three streamers, edged with gold and depicting the Archangel Michael holding a spear and scales below an aquila. Though the Empire would not last forever, the design and colours of this flag would come to influence those of Europe and countries across the world for centuries to come.

p5byzVB.png



Principality of Favonia

Rumours of land beyond the Atlantic Ocean, tall tales of ships swept off-course and reports of Guinean traders heading west, first occur in Europe no later than the early 1200s, but it wasn't until the mid-1300s that Oltremar was discovered by Moorish explorers on an expedition funded by the Emperor himself. Seeking trade, the Empire did not attempt to assert direct authority over any of the newfound land, but various nobles - disgruntled by the increasing centralisation of the Empire and longing for the "good old days" of centuries past - attempted to relive the "Peregrinations" that had seen their forebears invade and assert control over the Levant, but now heading West instead of East, and formed a variety of states on the shores of Oltremar. Their independence lasted a century and a half until the Emperor asserted his control over these colonies, reorganising them as the Principality of Favonia - a name taken from the Latin name for the West Wind. The flag of this new province consisted of five bars, alternating blue and green, with a compass rose placed in each one next to the hoist and each bar tapering and ending in separate points at the fly. Though the compass rose fell out of use as a symbol of Favonia, the colours of this flag would be used by the Oltremar United Polity and later inspire designs for many flags across Oltremar and the world.

7qISpG9.png
 

Krall

Banned
So knife fight in the Gobi desert, or do we all win and jointly decide on the next challenge?
 
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