Political setup of Communist Europe

Eurofed

Banned
While there is a ton of historical info on how the nazifascists planned to rule Eurasia, and it is quite clear on how its was going to be if Stalin had triumphed (Pan-European Warsaw Pact/Comecon), it is somewhat less clear how Europe was going to be set up if we use the alternative natural PoD for a Commiewank, the Red revolution spreading to large swaths of continental Europe in the post-WWI chaos, which I deem rather more plausible than a Joewank.

Therefore, assuming the double PoD of the Communists seizing power in Germany and at least either France or Italy (if not both) in 1919, so that Poland is aborted or overrun, Bela Kun's Hungary is stabilized by external support, and Yugoslavia/Romania/Cezchoslovakia are overrun, what would you assume the political asset of a Red continental Europe would be ?

IMO it is pretty clear that if the Revolution sweeps Europe in 1919-21, the leadership of the Communist movement would stay much more policentric than OTL, with the shots being called by the directory of the Politburos of the nations that were most popolous/developed/with a stronger and more prestigious Communist movements (in all likelihood Russia, Germany, France, Italy). But would it become an Eurasian mega-USSR federation, or a tightly-knit WaPact/Comecon confederation, again only with a policentric leadership ? How would the Commies deal with the nationalistic mess that the Balkans and the post-Habsburg space was ? How far the Revolution would expand if most of the continental great powers fall to the Reds ? Would we ever see the analogue of the Sino-Soviet split within Europe ?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Red governments pretty much. With Germany, France and Italy red, the USSR would not be the sole hegemon in the Communist Block though. Communist Civil War in Europe??
 

Susano

Banned
Red governments pretty much. With Germany, France and Italy red, the USSR would not be the sole hegemon in the Communist Block though. Communist Civil War in Europe??

If its in the aftermath of WW2, Stalin would make sure the USSR os the hegemon. Hell, with no west anymore he maybe decides there is no use for a belt of vasall states to protect the USSR from the west, and directly annexes everything as SSRs.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If its in the aftermath of WW2, Stalin would make sure the USSR os the hegemon. Hell, with no west anymore he maybe decides there is no use for a belt of vasall states to protect the USSR from the west, and directly annexes everything as SSRs.
But with a PoD in 1919, we might not even get Stalin. And if Germany goes Commie early, then Stalin is forced to deal with an equal partner even if he get into power.
 
If its in the aftermath of WW2, Stalin would make sure the USSR os the hegemon. Hell, with no west anymore he maybe decides there is no use for a belt of vasall states to protect the USSR from the west, and directly annexes everything as SSRs.

I've got to confess my doubt here: by 1945, the USSR has slipped into many of the old habits of Russian nationalism (they actually went as far as forcibly pushing the Moscow Patriarchate in Galicia). Stalin relied on the tradition or strong, ruthless, paternal rulers, on the legends built up around the recent struggles, and on people's fierce sense of difference from the outside world. A Frenchman, no matter how good a communist, could never really be part of Stalinism in the way that a Russian was.

Actually, I think commie France and Italy might go the way of Yugoslavia before long.
 

Susano

Banned
But with a PoD in 1919,

...I must confess I only read the first paragraph of the OP:eek:

Yes, if a Communist Revolution in Germany suceed, it will most likely be the leading power in the bloc. Assuming the Versailles Powers dont bother them too much, but if the revolution suceeds it seems they dont care much anymore, so...
 
IMO it is pretty clear that if the Revolution sweeps Europe in 1919-21, the leadership of the Communist movement would stay much more policentric than OTL, with the shots being called by the directory of the Politburos of the nations that were most popolous/developed/with a stronger and more prestigious Communist movements (in all likelihood Russia, Germany, France, Italy).

Agreed. In fact, without Comintern as an agent of Russian state policy that could boot you out for not accepting Leninism-Stalinism, communist will be a much broader tent anyway. Regimes in Italy, Germany, and France will not be Leninist. Whether they have "politburos" at all is an open question.

But would it become an Eurasian mega-USSR federation, or a tightly-knit WaPact/Comecon confederation, again only with a policentric leadership ?

Actually, I think it would be four powerful countries with state-socialist economies. Powerful countries with state-socialist economies are under no obligation to get along (Sino-Soviet split, anyone?) any more than differant regimes with capitalist economies got along in 1914-18.

Now, obviously just after the war they'll be strong sentiments in favour of peace, solidarity, working together, alliance for a bright new Jerusalem &cetera among all the various regimes (not to mention the urgent need to chase the reactionary lackies of Anglo-Saxon capital into the sea). But the German communists have no reason not to be as fiercely German as every other political faction at the time.

Where co-operatioon suits them, they will co-operate; where it doesm't, they may not.

How would the Commies deal with the nationalistic mess that the Balkans and the post-Habsburg space was ?

Just as IOTL, there are a lot of variables at play here. Luxemburg, or the OSDP, would have a very differant view of what to do than Lenin; so who's worker's army liberated where?

But in broad strokes, Austria and the Czech lands probably end up in or in the latter case at least very strongly associated with Red Germany; red triumph in Europe certainly means agrarian-socialist Bulgaria, and "Yugoslav identity" was quite popular with both Bulgarian and old-kingdom Serb lefty intellectuals (Croats, not so much...), with the national loyalties being seen (not so inaccurately) as purely a matter of monarchical houses, churches, and Victorian great power politics.

How far the Revolution would expand if most of the continental great powers fall to the Reds ?

Fun fun fun! Asia is going to be colourful in the *20s. Assuming Kemal's regime still arises then, being based mainly on Kemal, it could easily hang out the red banner under some sort of Kadroesque movement (which makes practical sense when you have to crush the Armenian White Guard and get the British Imperialist Lackeys out of Istanbul and, hell, maybe even Mosul...).

So then you have restive Syria and Iraq, where Britain pioneered the science of bombing non-white peoples; and Iran, with Jangals and Tudeh and Soviets, oh my; and let's not forget that the British Raj was quite possible saved from a real breakdown in order in the countryside by the personal intervention of Mr. Gandhi, and that Britain, lonely promontory of capitalism, will probably be having problems enough with miners and Irishmen...

Then there's China, and the question of what's going on in the French (Dutch, Belgian...) colonies.

Would we ever see the analogue of the Sino-Soviet split within Europe ?

That'll teach me to start replying before I read a post through. :eek::D
 
If there were a large communist revolution throughout Europe in 1919 it probably wouldn't have led to states like the USSR. You would have had radically democratic regimes spring up in the various countries affected, and since the whites would be significantly weakened the Russian Civil War would not be as bad, which might prevent the rise of the military administrative state that developed under War Communism. The Left SR's and Mensheviks might even be let back into a democratic government. In Germany the revolution would probably be democratic from the start, though possibly excluding the upper class.

In an environment with multiple democratic socialist states, it would be very difficult for an authoritarian communist state to arise without losing all legitimacy. Internationalism would also be very important, and I could easily see these nations forming a sort of loose federation.
 
Lenin (while alive) stated that a hypothetical Soviet Germany, Poland, Hungary, Finland only would have a loose connection with his Soviet Union. And Rosa Luxemburg wasn't too fond of Lenin trying to make the German communists following his ideology.
 

Susano

Banned
Lenin (while alive) stated that a hypothetical Soviet Germany, Poland, Hungary, Finland only would have a loose connection with his Soviet Union. And Rosa Luxemburg wasn't too fond of Lenin trying to make the German communists following his ideology.

But in the end Thälmann got his way. In the interbellum, Moscow did control most communist parties in Europe... of course if those parties now all have own powerbases, a "sino-soviet split" equivalent might well happen indeed...
 
There's a difference in the Communists getting elected into power, the Communists getting into power with a revolution and keeping a multiparty system rather than adopting democratic centralism, and the Communists getting into power with a revolution and establishing a one party state.

From my lurking days, I remember a thread on these boards that has no Spartacist Uprising and instead the SDP and KDP end up merging into a new communist party. Having the Spartakus types like Rosa who split from the SDP over its support of the war but were not interested in full Leninism actually alive and around to help bridge the gap between the two parties would be useful.
 
Red France is too far away for Stalin to grab, and could claim a "first-born" right on communism (both the Revolution and the Commune).
Red Germany can claim being Marx's birthplace, and before the war is too big a mouthful for S to gulp down.
Red England is the place where Marx forecasted the Revolution would take place.
Thus all these places ), could easily become different red poles of attraction
Being both red doesn't automatically mean bein good chums.
Think to things alike to OTL CCCP-China
 
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