Political fallout from Jonestown if no Milk/Moscone Murders

If Jonestown still happens, but for some reason(Dan White has his "WTF am I doing?" moment, or gets stopped by city hall security, or is on too much of a sugar-buzz to shoot straight), Harvey Milk and George Moscone don't get murdered a week later, what, if any, are the Jonestown-related implications for the political careers of those two men?

I'm thinking mostly of Moscone, because I think he was the most closely linked to Jim Jones, having relied heavily on People's Temple for campaign activists, and of course appointing the Rev to that housing commission. Are his political prospects in the '79 election seriously impaired?

One of the things I recall from The Mayor Of Castro Street is that Moscone WAS politically vulnerable after Jonestown, and that Harvey Milk was well aware of this, the implication being, I think, that this encouraged Milk to press Moscone against reappointing White, since Moscone couldn't afford to piss off his gay and liberal constituencies.

Shilts also includes a quote from Milk, seemingly meant to emphasize his distrust of the Temple, though it seems a little ambiguous, something along the lines of "I accept help from their volunteers, but I don't want to get too close to them, because they're all nuts." Not quite an unequivocal denunciation.
 
Last edited:
I'd like a reference for this if possible about Milk and Moscone's connection.

Jim Jones, and probably the inner circle of leaders, build a church which helped poor people and welcomed people of all races. Of course there was very much a dark side which we learned about later.
 
Assuming Jonestown weakened Moscone what if you flip it ?

Delay or avoid Jonestown and have Moscone decide to give White one last shot thus avoiding the murders.
 
I'd like a reference for this if possible about Milk and Moscone's connection.

Prior to a few seconds ago, I would have just referred you to the Shilts book. However, a google turned up this website, which apparently is a project of San Diego State University's Religious Studies Department...

Because Milk and Moscone were murdered so soon after the Jonestown tragedy, there was immediate speculation that Peoples Temple was somehow involved. Ann Kronenberg, Milk’s hand- picked successor, told Milk biographer Randy Shilts, that when she first heard Milk was murdered, she thought Jim Jones was responsible. Rumors began to circulate (and some persist today) of obscure connections between Jim Jones and Milk’s murderer, Dan White. Vague rumors of a falling out between Milk and Jones also surfaced. One story has it that Milk asked Peoples Temple to remove his name from the church’s list of supporters when reports of violence and theft first came to light, and that he was outraged when the Temple failed to comply with his demand. Eventually, history settled on an official story: Jim Jones was a master manipulator who used unwitting local politicians to gain power for himself. The politicians, including Milk and Moscone, used Jones for volunteers and votes, while remaining personally distant and blissfully unaware of rumors of Temple violence, abuse, theft and even murder. The timing of Dan White’s murderous rampage was deemed coincidental.

However, upon closer inspection, it is clear that Harvey Milk was a strong advocate for Peoples Temple and Jim Jones during his political career, including the tumultuous year leading up to the Jonestown tragedy. Milk spoke at the Temple often, wrote personal letters to Jim Jones, contacted other elected officials on the Temple’s behalf, and used space in his weekly column to support the works of the Temple, even after the negative New West article went to press. Milk appeared in the pages of the Peoples Forum, the Temple newspaper, and received over fifty letters of sympathy from the residents of Jonestown when his lover, Jack Lira, killed himself in September 1978.
 
Assuming Jonestown weakened Moscone what if you flip it ?

Delay or avoid Jonestown and have Moscone decide to give White one last shot thus avoiding the murders.

Interesting choice of words!

But yes, that scenario works as well. Though not as juicy as either OTL or the ATL, since you've got no massacre, no murders, and no political disruption.

But, going with a No Jonestown, No Murders TL, what happens to the career of Dianne Feinstein?
 
Thanks for the link.

http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=16566

It was not the only mass exodus of political support in the wake of the Jonestown tragedy. Politicians who once enjoyed volunteers, donations and votes from Peoples Temple, could not distance themselves from Jim Jones fast enough. Many of these people are still in politics today. [written 2003(?), last revision 2014]
very disappointing, and a missed opportunity.

It would have been good to have at least one political leader say something like: I missed the signs. It's one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made.
 
Thanks for the link.

very disappointing, and a missed opportunity.

It would have been good to have at least one political leader say something like: I missed the signs. It's one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made.

I'm trying to think of an example where you've had a calamity on the scale of Jonestown, and politicans who were linked with the architects of the atrocity have done what you wish for, ie. acknlwedge their involvement with the guys, and admit it was a mistake.

At the moment, I'm not really coming up with anything. Incidents like Jonestown are pretty much the ultimate example of the old adage about failure being an orphan. NO ONE is going to point to that baby and say "Yes, yes, that is mine!"
 
And I fully acknowledge being an idealist. Although in this case, it might also give you somewhat better chances for political survival.

And I agree the examples are few and far between. Maybe Bill Fulbright expressing regret for Gulf of Tonkin?
 
And I fully acknowledge being an idealist. Although in this case, it might also give you somewhat better chances for political survival.

And I agree the examples are few and far between. Maybe Bill Fulbright expressing regret for Gulf of Tonkin?

And I guess George Romney, with his admission that he had been "brainwashed" to support the Vietnam War. But I guess we all know how that worked out for him.
 
and this would be devastating for almost anyone. Afterwards, maybe Harvey tried to dive into his work to have some reason to keep going? and probably was on autopilot for quite a while

I don't think that Jones' connections with the SF political establishment can really be put down to just a couple of politicians being on auto-pilot. His connections with Moscone are well known, just for starters. (Shilts hints very strongly that Moscone was the "Italian liberal" who Jones bragged about supplying with prostitutes via the Peoples Temple, which is pretty tawdry given that both Moscone and the Temple were purporting to help the Temple's impoversehed congregants).

This, also from the San Diego website, probably gives you an accurate picture of the general situation.

Having said all this, I might not be too quick to condemn these politicians, since they almost certainly didn't foresee Jones eventual disintegration into Mistah Kurtz mode. And by all accounts, he did seem to have a genuine following among San Francisco's poor and marginalized, and was likely doing quite a bit of good for them, on an everyday basis.
 
His connections with Moscone are well known, just for starters. (Shilts hints very strongly that Moscone was the "Italian liberal" who Jones bragged about supplying with prostitutes via the Peoples Temple, which is pretty tawdry given that both Moscone and the Temple were purporting to help the Temple's impoversehed congregants).
And by indirectly referring to Moscone, in a sense Jim Jones is flashing the Ace rather than playing it.

And I very much agree, abusive as all shit. if true, and that part needs to be added, too. Randy Shilts is not necessarily the final, ultimate source.

And I don't want us to rag on poor people too much. For example, people who have worked a variety of frontline jobs often have a much keener sense of the interplay between theory and practice than the majority of other people! But all the same, people at some degree of vulnerability in their lives, coming to the church for answers, probably dissatisfied with more traditional churches, maybe to some extent alienated from members of their families precisely because of their participation with People's Temple. Should be respected, and not exploited.

So, if true, looks like the People's Temple went through a long dark period, before things went completely crazy at the end.
 
Last edited:
Jim Jones’ sinister grip on San Francisco, Salon, David Talbot, May 1, 2012.

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/01/jim_jones_sinister_grip_on_san_francisco/

“Season of the Witch,” the new book by Salon founder David Talbot, tells the story of the wild and bloody birth of “San Francisco values.” The following excerpt – Part 1 in a three-part series -- recounts one of the darker dramas before the ultimate triumph of those values.

.

.

.

' . . . Jones could be counted on to deliver busloads of obedient, well-dressed disciples to demonstrations, campaign rallies, and political precincts. The city’s liberal Burton machine — run by congressional powerhouse Phil Burton — quickly identified the Peoples Temple juggernaut as a potentially game-changing ally in its long battle to take over city hall.

'It was Burton ally Willie Brown – a rising force in California’s state capital — who first recognized that Jones’s organization could play a pivotal role in his friend George Moscone’s run for mayor. . . '

.

.

.

.

.


' . . . In the December [1975] runoff between Moscone and Barbagelata, Peoples Temple went even further to secure victory for its candidate. On the eve of the election, Jones filled buses with temple members in Redwood Valley and Los Angeles and shuttled them to San Francisco. Security at polling places was lax on Election Day, and many nonresidents were able to cast their ballots for Moscone, some more than once. “You could have run around to 1200 precincts and voted 1200 times,” said a bitter Barbagelata later, after losing by a whisper of a margin. . . '

.

.

.

.

.


' . . . The pastor was a wickedly smart reader of a politician’s character, and he knew that the way to enchant Moscone was with young women, not money. When it came to bribing politicians, the temple leader had ample supplies of both. Jones bragged of supplying Moscone with black female members of his congregation. Jim Jones Jr. remembered the mayor as “a party guy. He’d always be there at temple parties with a cocktail in his hand and doing some ass grabbing.”

'Temple insiders talked about how Mayor Moscone was one of the politicians under the control of “Father.” They gossiped about the night that the mayor had fallen into Jones’s hands. “Moscone was known to be a boozer; he liked to drink at parties,” recalled temple member Hue Fortson, now a pastor in Southern California. “One night there was some sort of temple event that the mayor attended. The next morning I heard that Jones phoned Moscone and told him it was a pleasure to see him the night before and to see him having such a good time. ‘But I want to let you know that the young lady you went off with is underage,’ Jones told him. ‘Now don’t worry, Mayor, we’ll take care of you — because we know that you’ll take care of us.’”

'Jones might have made up the stories of sexual blackmail. He was known to concoct outlandish tales. . . '

.

.

.

.

.

' . . . Political leaders, aware of Jones’s ability to deliver — or manufacture — votes, lined up to pay tribute to the preacher. He worked his way into the good graces of officials high and low — most of them Democrats, since that was the party in power in California and San Francisco in the mid-1970s. But Jones was also happy to exchange mutually complimentary correspondence with the offices of Ronald Reagan and statesman Henry Kissinger.

'During the 1976 presidential campaign, Jones wangled a private meeting with Jimmy Carter’s wife, Rosalynn, at the elegant Stanford Court Hotel on Nob Hill, arriving with a security contingent that was larger than her Secret Service squad. Later Jones accompanied Moscone and a group of Democratic dignitaries who climbed aboard vice presidential candidate Walter Mondale’s private jet when it touched down at San Francisco International Airport.

'Governor Jerry Brown sang the preacher’s praises. Congressman John Burton, Phil’s brother, lobbied the governor to appoint Jones to the high-profile board of regents, which oversaw California’s sprawling public university system. San Francisco Supervisor – now U.S. Senator — Dianne Feinstein accepted an invitation to lunch with Jones and to tour Peoples Temple.

'But no political figures were more gushing in their praise of Jones than Willie Brown and Harvey Milk, . . . '


.

.

.

.

.

' . . . Privately, San Francisco political leaders expressed doubts about Jones and his strange church. One day a friend of Milk’s named Tory Hartmann dropped off some boxes of campaign brochures at Peoples Temple, so that Jones’s army could distribute them. Hartmann was immediately unnerved by the uptight, high-security atmosphere inside the temple, where sentries stood at attention outside each room, like the palace guards in the Wicked Witch’s castle. “This is a church?” Hartmann said to herself. Later, after she sped back to the Castro and told Milk about her bizarre experience, the naturally cheery politician turned deadly serious. “Make sure you’re always nice to the Peoples Temple,” he told her. “They’re weird and they’re dangerous, and you never want to be on their bad side.” . . . '

.

.

.
So, as far as why George Moscone couldn't or didn't do anything in regards the abuse, the bullying, the financial dealings, yes, a church is entitled to believe however they want, but it's not outside the law in regards to some of the above.

well, if true, the reason was because Moscone was himself exposed and vulnerable and watching out for his own neck.

==========

Salon founder David Talbot is one source. As always, I want a variety of sources.
 
Last edited:
Top