Polish-Lithuanian union in 1919

It was Poland's corridor to coastline (outside of Livonia of course) before it was partitioned, so naturally it was the obvious corridor choice when Poland was revived.

Not random.
Eh, don't think the "powers that be" cared too much about borders that existed 150 years prior and served no purpose since.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
OK; understood.

Also, could Poland-Lithuania have become a thing had Germany won WWI and then decided, for whatever reason, to create one kingdom out of Poland and Lithuania?

Why would the Germans want that? Making sure Poland is weak would be one of the prioroties of their Eastern European policy, so backing a independent Lithuania would be part of that.
 
I have recently found out that Poland attempted to launch a coup in Lithuania in 1919 but failed once this plot was uncovered and enough of this plot's activists were arrested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Polish_coup_d'état_attempt_in_Lithuania

Anyway, what if this coup attempt would have succeeded and Poland would have thus unified with Lithuania in 1919?
So, so want you to have Hoi4's coup mechanics in real life?

Seriously, though, I can't see much else happening. As mentioned above, it could butterfly away the Danzig start of WW2, but, then again, the Germans want Memel, so...:(
 
Considering Poland's conquest of all of Ukrainian Eastern Galicia, I don't think it is unfeasible that Poland could try and conquer Lithuania, however, their peacefull annexation of Lithuania is absolutly impossible.
 
What about a union with Lithuania instead of conquest as a tripartite state with Ukraine as the third power? There was plenty of talk of restoring the Commonwealth for a brief period after World War I.
 
What about a union with Lithuania instead of conquest as a tripartite state with Ukraine as the third power? There was plenty of talk of restoring the Commonwealth for a brief period after World War I.
Nobody really wanted to restore the Commonwealth, not even many people in Poland. This was a time of nationalism, and multinational unions were an opposite to that.
 
Nobody really wanted to restore the Commonwealth, not even many people in Poland. This was a time of nationalism, and multinational unions were an opposite to that.

Pilsudski's army occupied Minsk in 1919 and a defensive alliance with the Ukraine already existed. He himself was from OTL Lithuania of Polish heritage if memory serves. Some in Lithuania supported it and in the face of Russian aggression it *might* have been able to exist as the federation "Miedzymorze" as Pilsudski might say. This does not mean it lasts but if developed correctly and if coordinated with France I think it could be a fun timeline to write.
 
Piłsudski mentally lived in 19th century, so he belived in all those unions, "Międzymorze", etc., which Dmowski and National Democrats opposed. To make Polish-Lithuanian union happen Russian Civil war should be altered-perhaps Bolsheviks conquered Baltic States but still failed to defeat Poland and then are pushed back to the east, during the course of war Poles conquered Lithuania from Soviets and decided to absorb it into new Commonwealth.
In such case there could be more support for union in Lithuania after experience of Bolshevik rule.
 
Might it have been possible to get a voluntary Polish-Lithuanian union if Lithuania had included Belarus? I seem to remember that the old style Lithuanian nationalists (those who saw Belarusians as Lithuanians who spoke a slavic language) weren't completely dead during the 1917-1922 period and tried to make a go of it. Not that it really went much of anywhere. If Lithuania were contesting Belarus with the Soviets, that could push them into cooperation with the Poles.

fasquardon
 
Might it have been possible to get a voluntary Polish-Lithuanian union if Lithuania had included Belarus? I seem to remember that the old style Lithuanian nationalists (those who saw Belarusians as Lithuanians who spoke a slavic language) weren't completely dead during the 1917-1922 period and tried to make a go of it. Not that it really went much of anywhere. If Lithuania were contesting Belarus with the Soviets, that could push them into cooperation with the Poles.

fasquardon
The problem here is that the people who wanted to restore the old multicultural Lithuania were not the people who were creating the Lithuanian nation in 1918, and because their influence was largely only limited to small Krajovci circles, they couldn't have had any more influence on Lithuania's future under the OTL conditions.

The founders of the republic of Lithuania were ethnic nationalists, who denounced the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the idea of a multicultural Lithuania in favor of a monoethnic democratic nation-state.

(Although, it should be mentioned that at least in Belarus, the idea that Belarusians are just Slavic-speaking Balts has not been forgotten up to present day, and as far as I recall, there is a small substrate of intellectuals who still support that idea)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The founders of the republic of Lithuania were ethnic nationalists, who denounced the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the idea of a multicultural Lithuania in favor of a monoethnic democratic nation-state.

They wanted a mono-ethnic state but also wanted the Poles in Vilnius.

(Although, it should be mentioned that at least in Belarus, the idea that Belarusians are just Slavic-speaking Balts has not been forgotten up to present day, and as far as I recall, there is a small substrate of intellectuals who still support that idea)

In Belarus or only in Lithuania?
 
They wanted a mono-ethnic state but also wanted the Poles in Vilnius.
Vilnius itself was mostly Jewish at the time, not Lithuanian, Polish or Belarusian, but that didn't stop all three of those nationalities from claiming the city. Sometimes, bragging rights and historical claims matter more than nationality.

Vilnius was always considered to be the capital of Lithuania, no matter what ethnicity was inhabiting it, thus Lithuania wanted it.
 

Deleted member 94680

They wanted a mono-ethnic state but also wanted the Poles in Vilnius.

No, they wanted Vilnius the city. They probably wanted the Poles out of the city as well.

If, and it's a massive if, the Coup is successful, then Poland would have a running sore on their hands. They would have the Polish in a few larger cities and the south of the country and a continuous, low- to mid-level, insurgency all across the rest of Lithuania.
 
The problem here is that the people who wanted to restore the old multicultural Lithuania were not the people who were creating the Lithuanian nation in 1918, and because their influence was largely only limited to small Krajovci circles, they couldn't have had any more influence on Lithuania's future under the OTL conditions.

The founders of the republic of Lithuania were ethnic nationalists, who denounced the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the idea of a multicultural Lithuania in favor of a monoethnic democratic nation-state.

(Although, it should be mentioned that at least in Belarus, the idea that Belarusians are just Slavic-speaking Balts has not been forgotten up to present day, and as far as I recall, there is a small substrate of intellectuals who still support that idea)

From what I understand of the situation, without a PoD in the late 19th Century, the only power base for such a united "LitBel" would be in Belarus itself. So maybe if the Bolsheviks occupy Lithuania proper and Belarus is conquered early on by an alliance of Poland and "great Lithuanians" allowing the (Belarusian) Lithuanians to establish a firm foundation of power for "Greater Lithuanian". Then later on, the Polish and (Belarusian) Lithuanian forces liberate Lithuania proper.

I suspect that the Lithuanian nationalists in Lithuania proper would only support such a union if said union were independent of Poland. So the union of Poland and this Greater Lithuania would have to wait until, say, the 1930s, when increased hostility from Germany and the Soviets aimed against them both makes full independence look like a dicey proposition.

fasquardon
 
From what I understand of the situation, without a PoD in the late 19th Century, the only power base for such a united "LitBel" would be in Belarus itself. So maybe if the Bolsheviks occupy Lithuania proper and Belarus is conquered early on by an alliance of Poland and "great Lithuanians" allowing the (Belarusian) Lithuanians to establish a firm foundation of power for "Greater Lithuanian". Then later on, the Polish and (Belarusian) Lithuanian forces liberate Lithuania proper.

I suspect that the Lithuanian nationalists in Lithuania proper would only support such a union if said union were independent of Poland. So the union of Poland and this Greater Lithuania would have to wait until, say, the 1930s, when increased hostility from Germany and the Soviets aimed against them both makes full independence look like a dicey proposition.

fasquardon
Even in Belarus itself, the base for a "LitBel" union was very weak. In OTL, a merge between Lithuanian and Belarusian Soviet Republics was pretty much forced by the Bolsheviks because they couldn't decide which side gets Vilnius.

As for your scenario, well, one of a number of problems is that there is no plausible way for the Bolsheviks to take control of all of Lithuania while losing Belarus at the same time. Belarus was pretty much in the middle of the Polish-Lithuanian-Soviet front, and if the Bolsheviks lose Belarus, the only way for them to supply their forces in Lithuania would be through Latvia, and their control there was tenuous at best. Not to mention that losing Belarus would be such a heavy blow to Bolshevik positions that they would probably evacuate the Baltics and peace out with the Baltic nationalists (just like IOTL anyway).

Lithuanian nationalists accepting a union with a "Belarusian Lithuania" which is clearly being propped up by Poland (the Litvins themselves have no chance of liberating Belarus or even growing to a major military force, so they would be reliant on Poland here) is also practically impossible.
 
Even in Belarus itself, the base for a "LitBel" union was very weak. In OTL, a merge between Lithuanian and Belarusian Soviet Republics was pretty much forced by the Bolsheviks because they couldn't decide which side gets Vilnius.

As for your scenario, well, one of a number of problems is that there is no plausible way for the Bolsheviks to take control of all of Lithuania while losing Belarus at the same time. Belarus was pretty much in the middle of the Polish-Lithuanian-Soviet front, and if the Bolsheviks lose Belarus, the only way for them to supply their forces in Lithuania would be through Latvia, and their control there was tenuous at best. Not to mention that losing Belarus would be such a heavy blow to Bolshevik positions that they would probably evacuate the Baltics and peace out with the Baltic nationalists (just like IOTL anyway).

Lithuanian nationalists accepting a union with a "Belarusian Lithuania" which is clearly being propped up by Poland (the Litvins themselves have no chance of liberating Belarus or even growing to a major military force, so they would be reliant on Poland here) is also practically impossible.

All good points.

fasquardon
 
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