Poland WITH Prussia and/or Silesia

Everyone knows the story of the little territory of the Teutonic Knights that secularized their territory and became the duchy and later kingdom of Prussia. Now what if King Sigismund I of Poland had decided not to recognize Albrecht of Brandenburg as duke, and instead taken the lands for himself? Perhaps he allows the duchy to form, and marries Sigismund II to Anna Sophia of Prussia. Then when Albrecht Friedrich is left without male-heirs (as OTL, he tried to advocate the succession of his half-sister's Mecklenburg children), Poland inherits Prussia?

Alternatively, there were several times post-1500 that Poland/Polish kings attempted to reclaim Silesia in it's entirety or piecemeal. IIRC, both Bona Sforza (advocating it through her husband) James Sobieski wanted to do so, but both lacked the ability to do so. How might Poland fare if she incorporates Silesia?
 
Well removing the instigator of the Partitions would probably be a good thing in the long run, however I doubt this would notably change the Systemic Problems the PLC Government eventually wound up with. Since the PoD is before the actual Union of Lublin you might be able to swing it, but given that he failed to produce a child after three marriages I doubt another would help, so Poland still winds up needing an Elective Monarchy and then everything just goes downhill from there.

And honestly, Poland's newfound security would be short lived if they piss it away by trying to seize Silesia, that will just needlessly antagonize their only nearby ally. I doubt they would succeed, but if they do, well, look at how Austria's Relationship with Prussia was. End Result: Austria and Russia team up to smack Poland down a century ahead of schedule. Maybe they invite Sweden to the party.
 
Well removing the instigator of the Partitions would probably be a good thing in the long run, however I doubt this would notably change the Systemic Problems the PLC Government eventually wound up with. Since the PoD is before the actual Union of Lublin you might be able to swing it, but given that he failed to produce a child after three marriages I doubt another would help, so Poland still winds up needing an Elective Monarchy and then everything just goes downhill from there.

And honestly, Poland's newfound security would be short lived if they piss it away by trying to seize Silesia, that will just needlessly antagonize their only nearby ally. I doubt they would succeed, but if they do, well, look at how Austria's Relationship with Prussia was. End Result: Austria and Russia team up to smack Poland down a century ahead of schedule. Maybe they invite Sweden to the party.


I think Poland will regain Silesia if the Habsburgs gain Poland..they plan to give it back but on their own terms like what they planned on Galicia.
 
Who would have considered ceding Silesia to Poland to be "giving it back" in the 16th-18th centuries? Silesia had been under the Bohemian crown for hundreds of years at that point, and hadn't been under effective control of the Polish throne since the 12th century.
 
Who would have considered ceding Silesia to Poland to be "giving it back" in the 16th-18th centuries? Silesia had been under the Bohemian crown for hundreds of years at that point, and hadn't been under effective control of the Polish throne since the 12th century.

It has been under bohemian crown since 14th century..but it was solidified by the fact that the Silesian Nobles did not like Jogaila, Jogaila was offered Silesia but he did not accept it because the nobles there hate him..
 
I think Poland will regain Silesia if the Habsburgs gain Poland..they plan to give it back but on their own terms like what they planned on Galicia.

Jesus Christ, what?! First and foremost- which Habsburg ruler actually considered incorporating Poland (not mentioning whole PLC) into Austrian empire? Only one I can actually think of, was Maximilian, but PLC was supposed to be only loosely affiliated with rest of the empire (decentralized Poland, ruled from abroad). In such case there is no chance for Silesia switching ownership. Even during Vasas reign, when some Silesian duchies were ruled by Polish monarchs, it was only lifetime, not changing owner.

Now- back to topic. Getting Prussia is pretty simple. During Deluge, elector of Brandenburg was vassal of PLC (but only in Prussia! :p), he participated in Battle for Warsaw in 1656, where Polish forces were pushed back, but not defeated. Sweden and Brandenburg positioned their forces to gain strategical advantage, but in case of defeat they were literally screwed- they hadn't had enough supplies to last (they "won" one day before these run out) and had swamps behind their backs. Both Swedish king and elector participated in this battle and it really was touch and go (lack of discipline among Polish cavalryman prevented Hussary charge from completely breaking Swedish lines... And it was really close anyway. Swedish king was supposedly hurt during charge!). If Sweden- Brandenburg lose this battle, it's pretty straight-forward now. Prussia is annexed, parts of Brandenburg too (parts of Western Pomerania, nothing more- we don't want to annoy whole HRE, right?). War was about ownership of Livonia... Which might go either way- in 1656 PLC was financially broken. But- most importantly- no decade lasting war will happen! In result PLC got severely depopulated (quarter of population died, was resettled, or somehow displaced) and reduced in size (Livonia mostly lost, huge areas in the east on behalf of Russia- much worse enemy actually).

Let's go forward and take worst scenario- Livonia is mostly lost (lack of funds), but less so, than IOTL (split between Sweden and Poland). Eastern territories are also lost- but still much less than IOTL (most of eastern Ukraine goes to Russia- but Smolens and Kiev stay in PLC borders- which is much more important than empty steppes, settled by Cossacks). Prussia is annexed, same for bits of Pomerania. Liberum Veto is not instituted (it got stronger because Casimir Vasa used it during Sejm session...) and- most importantly- PLC isn't depopulated. This is most important point, because huge swaths of unsettled land (eastern Ukraine) were prohibiting from switching to intensive farming methods- it was cheaper to buy new land and settle it, than invest in improvements in soil cultivation, Not in the long range, but still... There's an interesting table in "God's Playground" (Norman Davies), indicating that income from land returned to its pre-Deluge levels about 50 years later (or more, I don't remember now), only to drop again, due to Northern War. It's really interesting, because repopulation took rather short time, which means that without (devastating) wars PLC might easily have about 20 millions population by Napoleonic Wars (with more or less same borders).

Early abortion on Prussia is much more important than killing potential partitioner- no one might even think about partitioning Poland (because- You know- it would be as natural as partitioning France).

Silesia is hardest part- Austria is weak, that much is true. But Poland have only two strong neighbors on its borders at this point (if Russian westernization goes as OTL that is. Otherwise they might become dependent on much stronger PLC. Without access to Baltic/Mediterra, their whole trade goes through PLC. Which kills them as much as Prussian tariffs were killing PLC in XVIII century)- Russia and Austria, one obvious ally- France (PLC borders with Austria, not Russia in this scenario) and one wild card- Ottomans. Obviously, if Revolution starts in France, and it goes as otl there (Netherlands annexed, Austria completely screwed), PLC might consider intervening. On behalf of France or Allies? That's not a simple question, because if PLC survives as strong and healthy state, it won't resemble any other European state. Even without depopulation, PLC will be mostly countryside based (cities were always weak in PLC- Danzig and Warsaw being only ones to cross 100k threshold before partitions), at least before industrialization (we might see peasants migrating to towns/cities as it happened in GB though), with power divided between nobles and ruler (but absolutely not like IOTL. Decrease magnates power, take away unlanded nobles laws and middle nobility will gladly delegate more power to central institution- to weaken magnates even further), PLC might do what seems best- screw Austria by allying with France and grabbing Silesia (nothing can save Habsburgs in this case from breaking their empire- Napoleon won't need them). All this carefully watching Russia...
 
Jesus Christ, what?! First and foremost- which Habsburg ruler actually considered incorporating Poland (not mentioning whole PLC) into Austrian empire? Only one I can actually think of, was Maximilian, but PLC was supposed to be only loosely affiliated with rest of the empire (decentralized Poland, ruled from abroad). In such case there is no chance for Silesia switching ownership. Even during Vasas reign, when some Silesian duchies were ruled by Polish monarchs, it was only lifetime, not changing owner.

There were plans to reincorporate Upper Silesia to Poland or give it to Jagiellonian heirs but this never happened because of the lack of desire in the part of Jagiellonians to regain Silesia.

BTW. Isabella the Jagiellonian was offered Opole once.
 
So something that piqued my curiosity on another thread, (and I didn't see reason to create a new thread) is that following the childless death of the last duke of Masovia/prince of Warsaw (Janusz III) his heir was his sister, Sofia, Countess-Palatine Báthori. Now there was a bit of...unpleasantness between the countess (now duchess) and Sigismund I. But the countess/duchess had a daughter (born c.1524) who was betrothed to the duke of Münsterberg before she died in 1535. Could Sigismund agree to acknowledge the duchess on the condition thather daughter marry Sigismund II? That way, the Jagiellons don't incorporate Masovia into Poland, but directly into the royal domain once Sigismund's half-Masovian heir is born.
 
How about Nappy wins in Russia, and then decides to annex what's left of Prussia into Poland to get rid of the Hohenzollerns once and for all?

Or splits it into German and non-German Prussia giving the non-German to the Poles and the German to say, Saxony?
 
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