Poland stands with Czechoslovakia in 1938

Though relations between Poland and Czechoslovakia were often awful between the Wars, President Benes did compose a note to the Polish embassy offering to renegotiate Cieszyn the day before the Munich Agreement was signed. What if he decided that the French and British would throw all of Czechoslovakia to the dogs before mobilizing, and sent the note? And what if the Polish government, realizing that Germany will go after Poland next, offered military support against Germany in exchange for Zaolzie?

What if Poland and Czechoslovakia both refused the Munich agreement and prepared to defend against German aggression in autumn of 1938?

Could Romania (which, at the time, had a military alliance with Poland and fair relations with the Czechs) also be brought in?
 
The German Military was very nervous about a possible war with the Czechs. The Czechoslovkian army was not regarded as a push over. If Poland stood with the Czech it is likely that Hitler would have had to back down r there might have been a military coup. Plus if the Poles and Czechs stood together it might have given the French more of a backbone to stand up to Germany and embarrassed the hell out of Prime Minister Chamberlain.
 

Insider

Banned
I agree. Either the war starts earlier and most likely goes sour for Germans, or they back down and it ends up badly for Nazis. While Czechoslovakia and Poland wouldn't be much trouble for Wehrmacht singly, together they are nightmare. The problem lies elsewhere... what would Stalin do? He could either jump the bandwagon, and play defender of central Europe for a while, or does he drives his tanks West once both sides are exhausted from bitter fight?
 
I agree. Either the war starts earlier and most likely goes sour for Germans, or they back down and it ends up badly for Nazis. While Czechoslovakia and Poland wouldn't be much trouble for Wehrmacht singly, together they are nightmare. The problem lies elsewhere... what would Stalin do? He could either jump the bandwagon, and play defender of central Europe for a while, or does he drives his tanks West once both sides are exhausted from bitter fight?

Poland actually was a problem singly. They killed enough infantry, tanks, and planes during the defensive war that Germany had to spend the Winter rearming. This includes downing a full quarter of the luftwaffe.

With the Czechs Fighting as well, Germany is going to lose.

Then there's the fact that the Germans had no significant stockpiles of ammunition in 1938. They'd run out of bullets and shells pretty quickly. . .
 
If Poland did join with CZ, might other countries aid/join Germany?

Well on paper the Soviets, Lithuanians, and Hungarians all have axes to grind with the Czechs or Poles. But none of them strike me as the gambling type. Poland+Czechoslovakia is going to be a tough fight for Germany, especially with the potential for Anglo-French intervention.
 
Well on paper the Soviets, Lithuanians, and Hungarians all have axes to grind with the Czechs or Poles. But none of them strike me as the gambling type. Poland+Czechoslovakia is going to be a tough fight for Germany, especially with the potential for Anglo-French intervention.
If it comes to war, Hungary might join. Considering OTL they attacked Slovakia and Carpatho-Ukraine. Granted OTL they only had a few days worth of ammunition. The question is of course Italy. How would Mussolini react? This is still after the Anßluss and Benny might take the opportunity to do "something" however if he goes with Germany Hungary will likely join. Granted I don't see Mussolini being that dumb.
 

Deleted member 9338

While in the short term the Czech/Polish alliance is strong, but in. The long term they need Rumania for a long term alliance as they than have acces to the sea.
 
Here are just some numbers for everyone.

Germany had 36 Infantry Divisions (around 600,000 men) 2,000 tanks, 3,000 guns, and 2,500 aircraft.

Czechoslovakia had 35 Infantry Divisions, 2,200 guns, 500 tanks, and 880 aircraft. Of these planes, around 450 were bi-plane fighter planes Avia B-534. Which were still quite good in 1938 against first serial Bf 109 B/C/D. Around 250 bi plane attack planes Letov S-328 and around 100 Avia B-71 bombers (licensed SB-2s) rest was a mix of more obsolete planes.

Poland had 30 infantry divisions, 11 cavalry brigades, two motorized brigades, three mountain brigades, 3,000 guns, 700 tanks, and 208-312 fighters, and 60 bombers.

The Czech army at that time was stretching from the Polish border all the way around to the Hungarian border, had the strength of around 42 divisions, manning a massive network of field fortifications that had been in construction since 1935, and while not complete, the existing fortifications combined with the natural defenses of the Sudetenland, acted as a functional defense. Facing them was three armies (North, Center, South) totaling 50 divisions of the German army, that stretched from Moravia to the Hungarian border. While the man power facing each other was relatively equal for the time being, the German outnumbered the Czechs in tanks by five to one, and in aircraft by three and a half to one, however, German tanks while superior in number,were lacking in quality compared to the Czech counter-part in both armor and armament, and many of the men were activated reservists in their forties and older, this, coupled with only having enough fuel for three weeks.

The historic German invasion plans called for the main invasion of Czechoslovakia to happen in the south of Germany. To the north you had three armies, the 4th army with two divisions that held the line around Hermhut and Zittau, to their left was the eight army with four divisions that held the line from Hirschburg to Graz. These two armies were to hold the Czech defends in place. To the left of the 8th army was the fourth army with four infantry divisions and a panzer division. This army held the line from Zegenhals to the Polish border. This army was to break through the strong Czech defenses at Troppau and link up with the 14th army coming from the south towards Olmatz. If the Poles are to fight the Germans, where are they going to get the divisions from?

The Germans had three of the six armies on the attack. The 10th army had 3 infantry divisions, 3 motorized divisions, one panzer division, and one Austrian mountain division. These men were tasked with breaking through the defenses in the Sudetenland and take Prague, The 14th army that stretched from Wien to the March river had the task of breaking through the strong defenses at Brastslava and pushing towards Olmatz. This army numbered some 7 infantry divisions, 1 motorized division, two "field police" divisions, one panzer division and one Austrian mountain division.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
What woukd the french and British do if the Germans are busy fighting in the eastern front vs Poland and Czech
 
What woukd the french and British do if the Germans are busy fighting in the eastern front vs Poland and Czech
The French and English pretty much threw the Czechs under the bus to keep to their policy of appeasement. While Daladier was more weary of such a policy, he didn't have the political backing to really attempt much else without simply being removed from office. The French political system was shot as much as possible during this period of time. It's economy was also in dire straights (not so much compared to Germany but it was much more focused on) and Daladier programs while helping, still left the French at the tip of bankruptcy. The English and French delegates said "If you want to fight, you will fight alone"
 
If it comes to war, Hungary might join. Considering OTL they attacked Slovakia and Carpatho-Ukraine. Granted OTL they only had a few days worth of ammunition. The question is of course Italy. How would Mussolini react? This is still after the Anßluss and Benny might take the opportunity to do "something" however if he goes with Germany Hungary will likely join. Granted I don't see Mussolini being that dumb.
However if Hungary joins, Romania and possibly Yugoslavia join on side of Czechoslovakia. Romanians partially mobilized against Hungary after March 15 1939, when Hungarians started to occupy Ruthenia.

While in the short term the Czech/Polish alliance is strong, but in. The long term they need Rumania for a long term alliance as they than have access to the sea.
Romania would be very likely willing to allow flow of supplies to Czechoslovakia/ Poland, especially if it would be obvious Germany is not winning.
 
This would be a good timeline
It would, wouldn't it? In one I started I used Stefanik to survive his flight home in 1919 and organize Czechoslovak volunteers for Poland in 1920 to fight Reds from Czechoslovak legionaries returning from their Siberian anti Soviet war. ;)
 
While in the short term the Czech/Polish alliance is strong, but in. The long term they need Rumania for a long term alliance as they than have acces to the sea.

I should point out that Poland already HAS sea access via Gdynia and in the event of a victorious war with Germany would likely be able to annex Danzig outright, if not also parts of Pomerania and East Prussia.

By 1939 Gdynia had actually eclipsed Danzig for the Most amount of Trade conducted through ports.

Also if Romania Joins then so will Hungary. They're going to want Transylvania Back and Romania Joining against Germany will likely entice the Hungarians to enter the war.
 
I should also point out that the Majority of German Tanks at this point were the Panzer II, which were inferior to both the Czech Tanks and the Polish 7TP Tank. The 7TP tank had a superior gun to the Panzer II and the Czech LT vz 38 had both a superior gun AND better armor.

As to Planes, it the Quality of Planes doesn't really matter as much, Poland in 1939 downed a full quarter of the luftwaffe with nothing more than outdated planes from 1935 and a staggering amount of anti air guns. The Czech planes are even better and can actually approach something resembling parity with the Bf-109.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I should also point out that the Majority of German Tanks at this point were the Panzer II, which were inferior to both the Czech Tanks and the Polish 7TP Tank. The 7TP tank had a superior gun to the Panzer II and the Czech LT vz 38 had both a superior gun AND better armor.
An arguement a bit relativated by the fact, that this "quality" gap on paper still existed in 1940 (Fall Gelb)as well as in 1941 (Barbarossa).

But this quality gap regarding material was bridged by the then superior tactics of combined weapons (tanks + planes + motorized/fast infantry).
Same would have to be counted in ITTL.
 
An arguement a bit relativated by the fact, that this "quality" gap on paper still existed in 1940 (Fall Gelb)as well as in 1941 (Barbarossa).

But this quality gap regarding material was bridged by the then superior tactics of combined weapons (tanks + planes + motorized/fast infantry).
Same would have to be counted in ITTL.

Not really. By 1941 Germany had finally switched to a wartime economy and could produce enough ammo, fuel, shells, etc to keep up.

There are documented cases of the German Army stopping it's advance into France to refuel their tanks and trucks at French Petrol Stations.

Simply put, Germany does not have the supply to fight a protracted campaign against Poland and Czechoslovakia, and using combined arms will only strain that supply further.

Hell, the Nazi's had to loot the crap out of Czechoslovakia to be able to fight Poland in the first place. Not only militarily, i.e pressing Czech tanks and planes into service for the invasion, but also economically by forcing artificially high exchange rates between czech currency and german currency. The German Economy was close to ruin in 1938 due to hitler's program of rapid rearmament. . .
 
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