Poland restored at Vienna

What if and how could Poland have been restored at Vienna?

Maybe Prussia gets Saxony and Austria and Prussia aligned to put a Wettin on the Throne of Poland?
 
What if and how could Poland have been restored at Vienna?

Maybe Prussia gets Saxony and Austria and Prussia aligned to put a Wettin on the Throne of Poland?
Poland was restored in the Congress of Vienna. Congress Poland was established as a more or less autonomous state, with its own laws, parliament and military, just tied in a personal union with Russia.

The problem is that Russia couldn't care less about what the Congress of Vienna said, so there's that.
 
It was personal obsession of Alexander I to restore Poland with himself as king, he wanted to be seen as saviour of Poles (at the same time being Prussophile, which is contradictory) it is why he insisted in Tilsit, that Polish state created by Napoleon should not be named Poland, but Duchy of Warsaw. OTL Congress Poland was propably as much as he could achieve in Vienna. UK and Austria would not accept Russia's sphere of influence pushed closer to the heart of Germany or Saxony fully absorbed by Prussia. It would be easier to create bigger Poland if Poland is attached to Prussia instead, as part of dual monarchy. Could be done if instead of creating Duchy of Warsaw, Prussian Poland is changed into kingdom in personal union with Prussia, Prussia then joins war against Austria in 1809 and gains Galizia. Poland-Prussia would make Britain really happy, UK was hostile to idea of giving Poland to Tsar, either return to 1796 borders or giving Austrian partition to Prussia additionally would be prefferable solution to London compared to what happened IOTL.
 
It was personal obsession of Alexander I to restore Poland with himself as king, he wanted to be seen as saviour of Poles (at the same time being Prussophile, which is contradictory) it is why he insisted in Tilsit, that Polish state created by Napoleon should not be named Poland, but Duchy of Warsaw. OTL Congress Poland was propably as much as he could achieve in Vienna. UK and Austria would not accept Russia's sphere of influence pushed closer to the heart of Germany or Saxony fully absorbed by Prussia. It would be easier to create bigger Poland if Poland is attached to Prussia instead, as part of dual monarchy. Could be done if instead of creating Duchy of Warsaw, Prussian Poland is changed into kingdom in personal union with Prussia, Prussia then joins war against Austria in 1809 and gains Galizia. Poland-Prussia would make Britain really happy, UK was hostile to idea of giving Poland to Tsar, either return to 1796 borders or giving Austrian partition to Prussia additionally would be prefferable solution to London compared to what happened IOTL.

I wonder what a Hohenzollern Kingdom of Poland would look like. There would be an irredentist streak against Russia over some parts of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but the majority of Poles, I think, would be united under this one crown, so it would be a weaker tendency than OTL. The Prussians might also manage Galicia better—less poverty, more oil.

As to what effects it has on Prussia—what place would Poland have in a unifying Germany? Or might Prussia turn away from that goal toward more of a Drang nach Osten, restoring the old Teutonic domination of the Baltic coast and carving off the Polish-Lithuanian Kresy in the process?
 
I wonder what a Hohenzollern Kingdom of Poland would look like. There would be an irredentist streak against Russia over some parts of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but the majority of Poles, I think, would be united under this one crown, so it would be a weaker tendency than OTL. The Prussians might also manage Galicia better—less poverty, more oil.

As to what effects it has on Prussia—what place would Poland have in a unifying Germany? Or might Prussia turn away from that goal toward more of a Drang nach Osten, restoring the old Teutonic domination of the Baltic coast and carving off the Polish-Lithuanian Kresy in the process?
If Prussia is given Poland, Rhineland would be given to other state, likely Hannover, otherwise balance of power would be disrupted. Prussia would look east ITTL, initially hoping, that Poles could be easily Germanized, time would prove how wrong they are. Over time Poles would dominate Prussia from inside! Prussians would certainly manage Poland better than Russians and Austrians, they managed their part better IOTL, Prussian Poland would not be cut off from the Baltic Sea, serfdom abolition would happen earlier and would be done better, Posen and West Prussia IOTL were far richer than Russian and Austrian Poland by the turn of 20th century-almost 100% literate, with bigger farms and agriculture as productive as in Western Europe, more railroads, regulated rivers (so Vistula below Warsaw would not be "Polish Amazon" anymore :( ) and so on. Differences are still visible even today.
 
I wonder what a Hohenzollern Kingdom of Poland would look like. There would be an irredentist streak against Russia over some parts of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but the majority of Poles, I think, would be united under this one crown, so it would be a weaker tendency than OTL. The Prussians might also manage Galicia better—less poverty, more oil.

As to what effects it has on Prussia—what place would Poland have in a unifying Germany? Or might Prussia turn away from that goal toward more of a Drang nach Osten, restoring the old Teutonic domination of the Baltic coast and carving off the Polish-Lithuanian Kresy in the process?
Imagining what Russia would look like without Poland is just as interesting. It's unlikely that without the Poles giving the initial push, Lithuanians would ever attempt to repeat the mass-scale uprisings of 1830 and 1863, so it's probable that the closure of Vilnius University, the abolition of III Statute of Lithuania and the Lithuanian press ban never take place. Maybe, if there is no open conflict between the Lithuanians and the Tsar, the 1811 proposal to create an autonomous Grand Duchy of Lithuania could be dug up from the grave.

If Prussia-Poland is hostile to Russia, and thus Lithuania by extension, then the relations between Lithuanians and Poles will also be very very interesting to think about. On one hand, no uprisings means that the Polonized Lithuanian nobility remains in power and Polonization continues; on the other hand, conflict between Prussia-Poland and Russia would exaggerate the separation between the Polish and Lithuanian nobility.
 
Imagining what Russia would look like without Poland is just as interesting. It's unlikely that without the Poles giving the initial push, Lithuanians would ever attempt to repeat the mass-scale uprisings of 1830 and 1863, so it's probable that the closure of Vilnius University, the abolition of III Statute of Lithuania and the Lithuanian press ban never take place. Maybe, if there is no open conflict between the Lithuanians and the Tsar, the 1811 proposal to create an autonomous Grand Duchy of Lithuania could be dug up from the grave.

If Prussia-Poland is hostile to Russia, and thus Lithuania by extension, then the relations between Lithuanians and Poles will also be very very interesting to think about. On one hand, no uprisings means that the Polonized Lithuanian nobility remains in power and Polonization continues; on the other hand, conflict between Prussia-Poland and Russia would exaggerate the separation between the Polish and Lithuanian nobility.

I'm curious, do you think a Congress-esque Grand Duchy with the Polonised nobles left would result in this Grand Duchy becoming mostly Polish speaking or do you see an internal revolution in such an autonomous polity removing the aristocratic influence.

EDIT: And would such an entity seek to eventually "reunite" with Poland if Polonised fully or would you say that the Polonised nobles would desire autonomy/control more?
 
In lands of Russian partition, in absence of Congress Poland, Polish aristocracy could eventually achieve position in Russian Empire simillar to Baltic Germans.
 
The Poles were very glad that Napoleon gave them their country back (even if it wasn't named Poland), so they were quite loyal. And if Poland was divided a fourth time, well, no old princes lost anything.
 
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Is a condominium/independence with sphere of influence (ala China) out of the question? I feel like a Protestant King of Poland may not go over but Habsburg Poland would be much too much of a demand
 
Russia played kind of a big part in bringing napoleon down, if you don' give them congress Poland what are you going to give them?
 
If Prussia is given Poland, Rhineland would be given to other state, likely Hannover, otherwise balance of power would be disrupted. Prussia would look east ITTL, initially hoping, that Poles could be easily Germanized, time would prove how wrong they are. Over time Poles would dominate Prussia from inside! Prussians would certainly manage Poland better than Russians and Austrians, they managed their part better IOTL, Prussian Poland would not be cut off from the Baltic Sea, serfdom abolition would happen earlier and would be done better, Posen and West Prussia IOTL were far richer than Russian and Austrian Poland by the turn of 20th century-almost 100% literate, with bigger farms and agriculture as productive as in Western Europe, more railroads, regulated rivers (so Vistula below Warsaw would not be "Polish Amazon" anymore :( ) and so on. Differences are still visible even today.

So you’d expect Prussia to gradually Polonize? Or would there be an Austria-Hungary style mounting of tensions between Germans and Poles until a Dual Monarchy is hammered out?

If you wanted a historical reversal, make the Hungarians break free from Austria a few decades later and have the Austrians unite Germany :p

A free hand against the Ottomans?

Ah jeez, and the Greeks are all ready for their War of Independence right about now too...
 
In lands of Russian partition, in absence of Congress Poland, Polish aristocracy could eventually achieve position in Russian Empire simillar to Baltic Germans.

Indeed. Prior to the Napoleonic Wars quite a few Polish aristocrats had been doing well in Russian Empire. Actually, the Polish (ethnically) nobility from Smolensk region (which became Russian in the XVII and never became a part of Congressional Poland) kept doing quite well. From this perspective Congress Poland was not serving them well and neither was the whole idea creating anything but the tensions. As most of Alexander's ideas, this one was terrible.
 
I'm curious, do you think a Congress-esque Grand Duchy with the Polonised nobles left would result in this Grand Duchy becoming mostly Polish speaking or do you see an internal revolution in such an autonomous polity removing the aristocratic influence.

EDIT: And would such an entity seek to eventually "reunite" with Poland if Polonised fully or would you say that the Polonised nobles would desire autonomy/control more?
In this scenario - probably not. The nucleus of Polish culture would be outside of the Russian Empire's border, and thus would hardly be able to affect the processes in Lithuania.

Sooner or later, the National Revival will fire and a new class of Lithuanian-speaking intellectuals will take over. That is, if the Grand Duchy even lasts until the late 19th century - even without the revolts, a sufficiently anti-Lithuanian Tsar could revoke the autonomy or strip away its rights.
 
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