If the Luxembourgs or the Przemyslids succesfully united Poland with Bohemia what would be the relationship of Poland-Bohemia with Russia or Muscovy when or if it still rises to power as in OTL?
Poland-Bohemia and Russia
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
Perkeo
Banned
When unite Poland with Bohemia early enough, then Germany will probably be divided between its neighbors in analogy to OTL Poland:
Preventing the rise of Prussia is somewhere between an immediate result and a necessary premise for the scenario. Since Bohemia legally belonged to Germany until 1866, the two rivals for German leadership will be Austria and Poland/Bohemia, neither of which are interested in a German nation state, so sooner or later they divide the cake between themselves and let France, Denmark and some others have their piece of the cake as well.
All in all the Polish/Bohemian kings (emperors?) are in a very similar strategic situation as OTL Germany (large economic potential, lots of powerful border states, etc.) so I suppose they either screw up exactly as OTL Germany did - or they take all the opportunities that Germany missed IOTL.
Preventing the rise of Prussia is somewhere between an immediate result and a necessary premise for the scenario. Since Bohemia legally belonged to Germany until 1866, the two rivals for German leadership will be Austria and Poland/Bohemia, neither of which are interested in a German nation state, so sooner or later they divide the cake between themselves and let France, Denmark and some others have their piece of the cake as well.
All in all the Polish/Bohemian kings (emperors?) are in a very similar strategic situation as OTL Germany (large economic potential, lots of powerful border states, etc.) so I suppose they either screw up exactly as OTL Germany did - or they take all the opportunities that Germany missed IOTL.
What will happen to Lithuania? and if the Reformation and the Hussites are not butterflied what will happen to Poland-Bohemia?
Realistically speaking Poland-Bohemia could have been united in late XIIIth-early XIVth century. At the time PB relations with Moscovia would have been pretty much irrelevant, since there would have been Lithuania between them. Existence of PB causes too many butterflies - it can even butterfly away rise of Moscow as the state that united Russia.
IMHO PB would have been more interested westward. However, it doesn't mean PB would have forgotten about east. Lithuanian raids would have been a serious problem. There might be also a chance of some expansion to Galicia and Vladimir to create a buffer against Lithuanians and/or Tatars. Not to mention prosperous trade routs to the Black Sea.
Of course there is also a matter how many of Polish duchies were united by Bohemian kings. It might be only Silesia, Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) and Lesser Poland. But it also can be all that plus Masovia, Kuyavia and Pomerelia.
If PB has Pomerelia I sincerely doubt the Teutonic Order would dare to conquer it. Taking a land from a minor ruler (as Władysław the Elbow-high was at the tme) was one thing, but messing with strong kingdom was another. Not to mention that The Order wouldn't have been invited to protect Pomerelia from Brandenburg in first place.
PB with Pomerelia most probably conquers or vassalize Pomerania, with rich ports and towns. And with time we might have Bohemian navy in Baltic Sea.
IMHO PB would have been more interested westward. However, it doesn't mean PB would have forgotten about east. Lithuanian raids would have been a serious problem. There might be also a chance of some expansion to Galicia and Vladimir to create a buffer against Lithuanians and/or Tatars. Not to mention prosperous trade routs to the Black Sea.
Of course there is also a matter how many of Polish duchies were united by Bohemian kings. It might be only Silesia, Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) and Lesser Poland. But it also can be all that plus Masovia, Kuyavia and Pomerelia.
If PB has Pomerelia I sincerely doubt the Teutonic Order would dare to conquer it. Taking a land from a minor ruler (as Władysław the Elbow-high was at the tme) was one thing, but messing with strong kingdom was another. Not to mention that The Order wouldn't have been invited to protect Pomerelia from Brandenburg in first place.
PB with Pomerelia most probably conquers or vassalize Pomerania, with rich ports and towns. And with time we might have Bohemian navy in Baltic Sea.
What would happen to Prussia and Teutonic Knights and what will happen to the Eastern expansion of Germans if Poland-Bohemia existed? and how would be the relationship between Poland-Bohemia and Lithuania?Realistically speaking Poland-Bohemia could have been united in late XIIIth-early XIVth century. At the time PB relations with Moscovia would have been pretty much irrelevant, since there would have been Lithuania between them. Existence of PB causes too many butterflies - it can even butterfly away rise of Moscow as the state that united Russia.
IMHO PB would have been more interested westward. However, it doesn't mean PB would have forgotten about east. Lithuanian raids would have been a serious problem. There might be also a chance of some expansion to Galicia and Vladimir to create a buffer against Lithuanians and/or Tatars. Not to mention prosperous trade routs to the Black Sea.
Of course there is also a matter how many of Polish duchies were united by Bohemian kings. It might be only Silesia, Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) and Lesser Poland. But it also can be all that plus Masovia, Kuyavia and Pomerelia.
If PB has Pomerelia I sincerely doubt the Teutonic Order would dare to conquer it. Taking a land from a minor ruler (as Władysław the Elbow-high was at the tme) was one thing, but messing with strong kingdom was another. Not to mention that The Order wouldn't have been invited to protect Pomerelia from Brandenburg in first place.
PB with Pomerelia most probably conquers or vassalize Pomerania, with rich ports and towns. And with time we might have Bohemian navy in Baltic Sea.
As I mentioned before, if PB includes Pomerelia, the Order would not have taken it. Period. Therefore, they would have kept expanding eastward, most probably with PB quite enthusiastic support. Poland suffered from Prussian and later Lithuanian raids, so TO and PB would have had a common enemy - pagan, to boot. So there is a chance that TO march east in the north, together with Brethren of the Sword in Courland, while PB conquers Galicia and Vladimier (if PB is interested in expansion eastward) or vassalize them, as buffer states against Lithuanians and Tatars.
As far as Polish-Lithuanian relations goes, IOTL until the marriage of Jogaila and Jadwiga, there were, delicately speaking, far from perfect. Lithuanians were pagans and kept raiding Poland and Masovia. Poland and Lithuania were initially united only by the existence of a common enemy - the Teutonic Order. ITTL the Order is PB's friend, so the relations are bad.
As far as Polish-Lithuanian relations goes, IOTL until the marriage of Jogaila and Jadwiga, there were, delicately speaking, far from perfect. Lithuanians were pagans and kept raiding Poland and Masovia. Poland and Lithuania were initially united only by the existence of a common enemy - the Teutonic Order. ITTL the Order is PB's friend, so the relations are bad.
Perhaps Lithuania becomes Russia. And I'd imagine the Hussite wars goes roughly as OTL, with a Luxemburg king in Poland instead of Hungary fighting the Hussites.
Originally posted by yourworstnightmare
If Hussites war are not butterflied, then perhaps Sigismund has Hungary AND Poland. Not to mention Brandenburg etc. So he is stronger and can mobilize bigger forces against the Hussites, assuming Hussitism didn't become popular in Poland too.
Anyway, I think the butterflies would have done their job.
If Hussites war are not butterflied, then perhaps Sigismund has Hungary AND Poland. Not to mention Brandenburg etc. So he is stronger and can mobilize bigger forces against the Hussites, assuming Hussitism didn't become popular in Poland too.
Anyway, I think the butterflies would have done their job.
I think in a later POD where in Casimir III dies earlier, Sigismund would not have been born because it might be impossible for the descendants of Casimir III to intermarry with the Luxembourgs but I think the succession could be settled once Anne of Swidnica who is a grand daughter of Wladislaw the Elbowhigh marries to the Luxembourgs would stabilize the successor and any descendant of Elisabeth of Poland, the daughter of Casimir III would have a weak claim and in an earlier POD the Przemyslids will be also descendants of the Piasts via the female line.