Poland as a willing member of the Axis

Kristo

Banned
Oh what a load nationalism and Pilsudski propaganda. Let's start

Russia, historically, was the greater threat.
In Russia Poles could achieve highest positions in business,politics, science and military. In Germany they were lucky to have a home. Plus Germany was very succesfull in Germanisation of Polish territories. Russia never achieved that.

For over a century before the Partitions, the Russians stole our eastern territories (especially by supporting the Cossacks).
There were not ours but Lithuanian and Ruthanian.

Russia took the already small Duchy of Warsaw that Napoleon established, and shrank it further.
At the demands of Western Powers. And while Prussia ruled the part it gained with iron fist and started Germanisation, Tsar gave Polish Kingdom the most liberal constitution. If not for lunatics of 1831 it would grow prosperous and rich as the most developed region in Russian sphere. And in 1848 there would be an occassion to regain Galicia and Wielkopolska.

It is only natural that the Poles who opposed Russian expansionism would take power, and Pilsudski was the highest among them
A Lithuanian, or Kresowiak. Hardly a Pole:D


. And Pilsudski appealed to Polish Romantic Nationalism, especially in his attempts at a Second Polish Commonwealth (Miedzymorze).
Yes, the Lithuanian-Kresowiak mad dream of eternal fighting with Russia over worthless muds of Polesie and stepps of Ukraine, so that some Kresowiak Magnats can whip Ukrainians peasants for their personal wealth and fun, while ignoring Poles in rich Poznan and mineral abundant Silesia.


The reason AH.com has any bias toward Pilsudski is that, despite his flaws, he is the sane option for postwar Polish leader.
The man who expanded Polish borders beyond its limits, who imposed a rule over numerous non-Poles against their will, who betrayed Ukrainians, who imposed dictatorship, tortured and possibly murdered his opponents, the man under whose reign rampant corruption was the norm ?:) Frankly-Poland and the world would have a better option with Dmowski confronting Germany.
 
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Kristo

Banned
Seriously... :eek:
I don't consider Kresowiaks Poles, but rather a seperate identity.They are a viscious mix of the worst elements of eastern Polish nationalism and backwardness. Opposition to modernisation, fanatical religiousness, irrational thought, agrarian views on agriculture, total contempt for Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belarusians and blind hatred of Russia. They are so fanatical, that they would gladly sacrifice Poland for a scrap of mudland in Ukraine.
For centuries they have sabotaged Polish development, plunging our state into confrontation with Russia over worthless lands, opression of other nations like Ukrainians, hindered establishment of modern thought and industry in Poland.
IIRC one spoke during Cold War that he would gladly abandon Pomorze and Lower Silesia for Polesie(a worthless swamp infested wasteland stricken with poverty :mad:)
They don't represent anything positive.
 
I don't consider Kresowiaks Poles, but rather a seperate identity.They are a viscious mix of the worst elements of eastern Polish nationalism and backwardness. Opposition to modernisation, fanatical religiousness, irrational thought, agrarian views on agriculture, total contempt for Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belarusians and blind hatred of Russia. They are so fanatical, that they would gladly sacrifice Poland for a scrap of mudland in Ukraine.
For centuries they have sabotaged Polish development, plunging our state into confrontation with Russia over worthless lands, opression of other nations like Ukrainians, hindered establishment of modern thought and industry in Poland.
IIRC one spoke during Cold War that he would gladly abandon Pomorze and Lower Silesia for Polesie(a worthless swamp infested wasteland stricken with poverty :mad:)
They don't represent anything positive.

And finally you reveal your true (racist) colors.

Reported again for good measure.
 

Kristo

Banned
First Germans
Where? I am curious? In which part did I make any racist attack on Germans? I would never say that all Germans were Nazis-although there is no doubt that there was a period where majority supported Nazi goals and ideology,however there is no doubt as well that there were German individuals who did not.

and now Kresowiaks.
Kresowiaks are neither an ethnic group nor a nation. This a broad term for Poles from East(of which part of my family comes anyway am I racist to myself?). Of course not all of them are like that, but I was refering to the most active political groups who declare themselves as such-thus to a political movement that portays Kresy vision in nationalistic fashion, a movement that is dedicated to nationalistic views of Polish conquest of Ukrainian and Belarusian lands and so on.
 

Caspian

Banned
As I understand it (and has been pointed out), Hitler himself, and the Nazi Party by extension, was committed to the destruction of Poland, and the demands Hitler made to the Polish government prior to the war weren't meant to be accepted, but simply to serve as a pretext for war upon their refusal (and acceptance of those terms would have thrown Hitler into a fit and screwed up all of his plans, despite it being a boon for him, at least at first glance).

Poland accepting Hitler's terms does not end the conflict, or safeguard Poland and allow it to join the Axis, but simply serves as a Polish equivalent of the Sudetenland crisis, and which will end in much the same way. If Hitler is in charge of Germany from 1933, then Poland will not be an ally of Germany, but a victim.
 
All I know is that people in this thread were fairly amenable to the concept of German-Polish collaboration vs. the Soviets.

Still welcoming more players, by the way. Post those screenshots!
 
Opposition to modernisation, fanatical religiousness, irrational thought, agrarian views on agriculture, total contempt for Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belarusians and blind hatred of Russia. They are so fanatical, that they would gladly sacrifice Poland for a scrap of mudland in Ukraine.

Gee, thanks. You just learn something new about yourself each day.

IIRC one spoke during Cold War that he would gladly abandon Pomorze and Lower Silesia for Polesie(a worthless swamp infested wasteland stricken with poverty :mad:)

I take it that by "Pomorze" you mean Prussian Provinz Pommern, right? Exchanging provinces that required Poland to ethnically cleanse their inhabitants, with 0-1% native Polish population for a territory that was part of the Polish sphere for ages, wouldn't require the cleansing - and, to be honest, it's people would have been better off now as part of Poland (and would probably polonize)? Well, if you're choosing the "kick millions of people out of their homes" option, that says something about you.

They don't represent anything positive.

Well, unlike you, you at least are hilarious in your craziness - that's a positive in my eyes. But I admit, many unusual things make me laugh.


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He does have a point though, fighting Russia for mosquito hatcheries, kind of useless. And the Kresy were, unsurprisingly, the part of the country that supported fighting for Kresy the most.
 

Cook

Banned
I don't consider Kresowiaks Poles, but rather a seperate identity.They are a viscious mix of the worst elements of eastern Polish nationalism and backwardness. Opposition to modernisation, fanatical religiousness, irrational thought, agrarian views on agriculture, total contempt for Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belarusians and blind hatred of Russia. They are so fanatical, that they would gladly sacrifice Poland for a scrap of mudland in Ukraine.
For centuries they have sabotaged Polish development, plunging our state into confrontation with Russia over worthless lands, opression of other nations like Ukrainians, hindered establishment of modern thought and industry in Poland.
IIRC one spoke during Cold War that he would gladly abandon Pomorze and Lower Silesia for Polesie(a worthless swamp infested wasteland stricken with poverty :mad:)
They don't represent anything positive.

I expect you’ll post references justifying all of these rather tastless statements or are Kresowiaks just your version of the Eternal Jew?
 
"People who don't agree with me aren't actually Poles". There's a healthy attitude!

To expand on what Chengar said, a slightly longer summary. What we have here is a classic specimen of negative nationalism, with Germandom as its object; hence why he includes many Poles among his enemies, and his rather bizarre affection for Tsarist Russia. I mean, everybody knows I'm a filthy traiitor in the pay of Moscow, and I still don't think Tsarist Russia was half as much of a barrel of laughs as he does.
 
Wow... I know it matters not, and I'm just feeding this obviously delusional troll, but I can't resist dissecting this Gordian Knot of madness.

Note: this post will be LONG. So a warning feels needed.

No German government before Hitler(ironically) tried to make any long term deals with Poland, prefering to divide it eventually with Soviet Union. As early as in 1920.

Meddling in Middle Europe: Britain and the 'Lands Between, 1919-1925 page 293
Miklós Lojkó - 2006
The German chancellor, also leader of the German Centre Party, went so far as telling Rantzau in October 1920 that a common boundary with Russia and the destruction of Poland should be the goal of German foreign policy
I'd rather doubt that Germany at this time would either A: be able to do this at all with a crippled Soviet Union, or B: would even want to do this. Besides, they weren't exactly pals with the commies by around this point. Spartacus Uprisings and such.

most of the German parties DNVP, DVP,German Centre Party, NSDAP were nationalist and wanted to annex or destroy Polish state.
Nope. They wanted the lands they lost from the peace treaty, primarily Danzig corridor and Alsace-Lorraine. Nothing about destroying Poland, sorry. Oh, and the Zentrumspartei was always in the middle regarding most things. They definitely lived up to their name.

Implausible. German politicians didn't view Poland as legitimate country and wouldn't agree to anything less than annexation of its western part and turning the less into a puppet state. Which the Polish politicians knew quite well.

Make it more interesting. Have Poland be fascist, allied to fascist Italy. Ruled by Endecja it is more friendly to gestures of alliance with Czechs(as Endecja feared Germans as the main enemy of Poland, and was interested in neoslavism as ideology). Than the Axis is Italy-Czech-Polish alliance that goes to war over Anschluss of Austria.
Uh.. first off, the second half of his idea, a Rome-Warsaw axis works quite well. Just have Dolfuss survive his assassination to prevent Mussolini pal around with Hitler. Second, the thinking you posted is precisely why the Germans thought they should fear being surrounded on all sides. Third, why would you need another Hitler to seize power in Poland? It was already fairly authoritarian. Finally, HOW IN THE WORLD DID THE CZECHS GO WITH THAT IDEA?! They were really the only successful democracy in Eastern Europe, and good friends with the French. They wouldn't just go to Rome.

Snowstalker, your pic served well.

Yes, it was quasi-fascist, hated Russians, would welcome Germans, and always was interested in the East. The usuall AH.com stereotypes.
In this order: Right, Right, WRONG, and about right... yeah, one wrong compared to your record.

Also, nice pic Markus. I haven't seen such failure in another since...

What annoys me in AH.com scenarios(besides the usuall lack of historic knowledge)
Mr. Kettle would like to see you. He wants to compare pallets.

Poles are always obsessed with attacking Russia, hating Russia, despising Russia. All the political factions like Endecja, Wielopolski, or pro-Russian attitude of much of nobility during early XIX century is usually ignored.
I would like to point out that, yes... Poland didn't like Russia at all. They considered them to be the bigger threat than Germany. As for those attitudes by the nobles... would you like to examine that the 'nobility' at the time were all Russian practically?

In Russia Poles could achieve highest positions in business,politics, science and military. In Germany they were lucky to have a home. Plus Germany was very succesfull in Germanisation of Polish territories. Russia never achieved that.
Which is why they also applied their methods for Russification on the poles. They did the same thing, and treated them as bad as Prussia. Which reminds me... before you get banned, I really want to know what you think on the Austrians? Particularly Hapsburg Austria?

There were not ours but Lithuanian and Ruthanian.
Which is why the kingdoms were integrated together for hundreds of years as a unified state. Oh, and just call Ruthenians Ukrainian and Belorussian.

At the demands of Western Powers. And while Prussia ruled the part it gained with iron fist and started Germanisation, Tsar gave Polish Kingdom the most liberal constitution. If not for lunatics of 1831 it would grow prosperous and rich as the most developed region in Russian sphere. And in 1848 there would be an occassion to regain Galicia and Wielkopolska.
Ahh, I love a good fantasy and wankfest. Yeah, Russia, the most authoritarian state that ate Poland, crafted a liberal constitution for the poles. Better yet, I love how you'd imagine that the Russians would be fine with Poland being more prosperous per size than itself. No way.

A Lithuanian, or Kresowiak. Hardly a Pole:D
Yep just like the Polonized Germans in the west you racist.

Yes, the Lithuanian-Kresowiak mad dream of eternal fighting with Russia over worthless muds of Polesie and stepps of Ukraine, so that some Kresowiak Magnats can whip Ukrainians peasants for their personal wealth and fun, while ignoring Poles in rich Poznan and mineral abundant Silesia.
Yes, because substituting one bloody and violent war with another is clearly the right thing to do.

The man who expanded Polish borders beyond its limits, who imposed a rule over numerous non-Poles against their will, who betrayed Ukrainians, who imposed dictatorship, tortured and possibly murdered his opponents, the man under whose reign rampant corruption was the norm ?:) Frankly-Poland and the world would have a better option with Dmowski confronting Germany.
So instead of Auschwitz, we have Cracow or something? Seriously, in a list of losers, you couldn't really be picky. Plus I love how you assume that your pick won't do worse than Pilsudski .

I don't consider Kresowiaks Poles, but rather a seperate identity.They are a viscious mix of the worst elements of eastern Polish nationalism and backwardness.
Nice to know you're humble.

Opposition to modernisation, fanatical religiousness, irrational thought, agrarian views on agriculture, total contempt for Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belarusians and blind hatred of Russia.
Ah, you do hate Russia... what's next? The Jews? Nope, I got it... Hungary.

They are so fanatical, that they would gladly sacrifice Poland for a scrap of mudland in Ukraine.
So says the guy who knows nothing about the Ukraine. It's pretty rich in grains and farming actually. Hardly a 'mudhole'.

For centuries they have sabotaged Polish development, plunging our state into confrontation with Russia over worthless lands, opression of other nations like Ukrainians, hindered establishment of modern thought and industry in Poland.
Despite the facts that it was the noblemen who failed the state. Plus, the Ukrainians were pretty fine with it. They never were that nationalistic.

IIRC one spoke during Cold War that he would gladly abandon Pomorze and Lower Silesia for Polesie(a worthless swamp infested wasteland stricken with poverty :mad:)
They don't represent anything positive.
Once again, not that worthless. Also yes, you're going to be reported when I'm done.

Racism? Against whom?
I was going to say that after typing this you went on to beat up German orphans, but that wouldn't be nice... oh wait.

Where? I am curious? In which part did I make any racist attack on Germans? I would never say that all Germans were Nazis-although there is no doubt that there was a period where majority supported Nazi goals and ideology,however there is no doubt as well that there were German individuals who did not.
Actually most Germans were ambivalent towards it. They supported the government, but not the ideology. They usually tried to look away. Also, yeah, you kind of just proved Snowstalker by typing this.

And yes, you are a very bad troll.

They don't represent anything positive.
So you admit you're useless?

Well, that was fun. Time to report and observe the inevitable.
 
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Susano

Banned
Huh? If Poland falls to the communists Germany gets their lost territory back and gains an excuse to rearm.
Depends. The Soveiets winning the Battle of the Vistula as a good PoD for a better German interbellum is an idea I like (sorry ;) ), but it doesnt work that smoothly. After all, France is still there and watching. If their envisioned partner to help keep germany down on the other side suddenly falters, they may react in panic. Faeelin claims there plans in the French government that in such a case the western Rhine bank should be directly annexed... of course, governments have eventuality plans for everything, so it doesnt need happen, but yeah, it wont be as smooth as you picture it, in any case. Its also possible that even if things go otherwise well for Germany theyll have to accept or even help to prop up a Polish resistance government at Poznan, as one possibility.

During Bolshevik-Polish war for example Germany sheltered Bolshevik soldiers escaping Polish pursuits and gave intelligence to Bolsheviks regarding Poland.
And why not?

Recurring, unusually persistent Polish ultranationalist troll.
Hurgan claims he isnt nationalist, and I believe him on that. Hes just mindboggingly obsessed and Germanophobic. I mean, Molobo for example, thats a true ultranationalist, and with a raging hatred against Germans and Russians. Hurgans just hates Germans beyond any logic, thats all.
 
Hurgan claims he isnt nationalist, and I believe him on that. Hes just mindboggingly obsessed and Germanophobic. I mean, Molobo for example, thats a true ultranationalist, and with a raging hatred against Germans and Russians. Hurgans just hates Germans beyond any logic, thats all.

Well, this may be the reason why Molobo's rantings are at least somewhat coherent (Poland über alles!) while Hurgy just seems plain insane. I mean, now that you say it, he does not even care about what others did to Poland, while a true nationalist would get agitated about any wrongdoing towards his country. So I have to correct my statement:

Hurgan's a recurring, unusually persistent anti-German racist troll, who makes even Molobo seem sane.
 
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Nice to know you're humble.

Ah, you do hate Russia... what's next? The Jews? Nope, I got it... Hungary.

I agree with your points, but I'd like to nitpick a bit. First, he isn't calling himself a Kresowiak. He loves Russia, it seems. However, he is calling eastern Poles, Polonized Lithuanians and Polonized Ruthenians "Kresowiaks," and accusing them of hating Russia and loving Germany. Nice to learn something about myself (both sides of the family from Bialystok region).

Now, let's examine that Rome-Warsaw Axis a bit further. Had Poland and Italy gone to war against Nazi Germany in 1938, what would be the result? Would France join in the fun? Which front would experience the most bloodshed? And would the USSR stand by and wait to strike?
 
Hurgan claims he isnt nationalist, and I believe him on that. Hes just mindboggingly obsessed and Germanophobic. I mean, Molobo for example, thats a true ultranationalist, and with a raging hatred against Germans and Russians. Hurgans just hates Germans beyond any logic, thats all.

Positive and negative nationalism. Because his national identity is negative, Hurgan is particularly good at the mental gymnastics of doublethink: Russia is a malignant presence and not an ordinary country when it's a question of who germany backs in the Polish-Soviet War, but twenty years later, the Russians exist to suffer aesthetically alongside the Poles at Nazi hands.

Everything becomes clear, with Orwell! ;)
 

Susano

Banned
Positive and negative nationalism. Because his national identity is negative, Hurgan is particularly good at the mental gymnastics of doublethink: Russia is a malignant presence and not an ordinary country when it's a question of who germany backs in the Polish-Soviet War, but twenty years later, the Russians exist to suffer aesthetically alongside the Poles at Nazi hands.

Everything becomes clear, with Orwell! ;)

Hm, yes, I see you have in fact posted a more detailed analysis quite some posts before me. Ah well. Funny to see another spin added to Hurgan, in any case - now he also hates Eastern Poles :D Which makes sense, I guess. he has often said that they should be thrown to the wolves (well, Russia) so that Poland could annex German lands for no reason at all, because fuck you, Germany, heh.
 
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