Poland as a willing member of the Axis

What could lead to Poland being a willing participant of the Axis? I'm envisioning something on the order of Vichy France, though realistically they would be much more subordinate to Germany. The motivation for Poland to ally is probably not too difficult- just get the military government to be afraid of the Soviets enough to jump into the arms of the Nazis- but there will need to be severe changes to prevent the Germans from doing what they did to ethnic Poles, Germanization and so on.
 
I imagine Hitler would have to go, and then the 'moderate' (Goering) faction win out in the resulting power struggle - that probably butterflies away any desire for a treaty with the Soviets. Perhaps Germany gets Danzig once the Poles have finished building their own port.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
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This is rather like a cow being a willing member of the Bar B Que line-up.

Poland was, from the time Hitler first put pen to paper, meant to be obliterated. Too many Slavs, WAY too many Jews, and far to much available land for Hitler's mad dream of Greater Germany.
 

mowque

Banned
This is rather like a cow being a willing member of the Bar B Que line-up.

Poland was, from the time Hitler first put pen to paper, meant to be obliterated. Too many Slavs, WAY too many Jews, and far to much available land for Hitler's mad dream of Greater Germany.

Not to mention centuries of distrust on top of all that.
 

Markus

Banned
This is rather like a cow being a willing member of the Bar B Que line-up.

Poland was, from the time Hitler first put pen to paper, meant to be obliterated. Too many Slavs, WAY too many Jews, and far to much available land for Hitler's mad dream of Greater Germany.

On the other hand, the Poles were no fans of Russians and they were governed by a right-wing military regime. As late as early-39 their relations with Germany were ok as far as I can tell, so what could lead to Poland being a willing participant in the destruction of the USSR?

Let´s start in WW1:

The Germany play the polish card sooner. When the war ends the Poles in return make fever demands on Germany, not least because they do not want to end up between two potentially more powerful, hostile nations ... again. This in return leads to Germany helping Poland against the USSR during the 1919-21 war, not least because the last thing the Germans want at their border is a satellite of the USSR. That is followed by a negotiated and rather non-violent sollution of the Upper Silesia conflict and last but not least they even reach a compromise on Danzig. The Poles agree to german sovereignty, the Germans agree to no more than a symbolic garrison and extraterritorrial polish acess to the port. Anything going to or comming from Poland is not taxed. Danzig could become the port of Poland, which would be beneficial to the economy of Danzig. And what do the Germans get in return? Maybe an extraterritorrial railroad line across the corridor?

This could go a long way to defuse tensions. With regard to the Jews, originally Hitler wanted them out not dead and IIRC the USSR was the object of his colonial fantasies. It was big enough for Finnland, Romania and Poland to get some slices too, wasn´t it.
 
The Germany play the polish card sooner. When the war ends the Poles in return make fever demands on Germany, not least because they do not want to end up between two potentially more powerful, hostile nations ... again.
Why would Poland want to align itself with Germany that just lost the war?
This in return leads to Germany helping Poland against the USSR during the 1919-21 war, not least because the last thing the Germans want at their border is a satellite of the USSR.
Huh? If Poland falls to the communists Germany gets their lost territory back and gains an excuse to rearm.
 

Markus

Banned
Why would Poland want to align itself with Germany that just lost the war?

To prevent from happening again what happened in 1795? The USSR and Germany were weak in 1918 but who could forsee the situation in 1928 or 1938?


Huh? If Poland falls to the communists Germany gets their lost territory back and gains an excuse to rearm.

And has the communists sitting right at its border. Considering the trouble the german commies made after 1918 any reasonable German government should have worked 24/7 to prevent that from happening. Speaking of rearming, a Poland not hostile towards Germany would have severly weakened the anti-German alliance the French established after the war.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Why would Poland want to align itself with Germany that just lost the war?

Maybe it would be a case of Polish interbellum leaders haing more common sense than the average chicken. Germany was bigger, richer and more industrialised than Poland. Everybody knew that Germany would at some point remilitarise again. Poland knew this, which was why they tried to keep a close relationship with France to force the Germans into a two front war in case of hostility. Another way could have been finding a peaceful solution with Germany, maybe accept fully fair referendrum in every area taken from the Germans, they could very well have ended up with OTL borders minus Danzig, but the Germans would have beena lot less pissed. The other element would be to treat the German minority better.
 
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Polish-German relations were pretty good prior to March '39, they even participated in carving up Czechoslovakia. Suppose the Poles bend over backwards to Hitler's demands, give Danzig back to the Germans in exchange for special customs rights there and allow the construction of an Autobahn route through the corridor(weren't those the original demands anyway?). The Poles then join the Anti-Comintern Pact, with the eventual aim of dividing up the Baltic nations and parts of Russia and Ukraine amongst themselves. Poland in the late 30's was surrounded by enemies. The Lithuanians, Soviets, Germans, and Czechs all had territorial disputes with them. Who knows, if they had allied with the Germans, things could have turned out much better for them.
 
Czechoslovakia yielded to demands far more severe than Danzig and an extra-territorial route between East Prussia and the rest of Germany and we all know how well Hitler honored that agreement. The Poles certainly knew.
 

Kristo

Banned
The Poles then join the Anti-Comintern Pact, with the eventual aim of dividing up the Baltic nations and parts of Russia and Ukraine amongst themselves.
Hitler proposed this to Polish foreign minister in OTL, but was met with refusal.

Suppose the Poles bend over backwards to Hitler's demands, give Danzig back to the Germans in exchange for special customs rights there and allow the construction of an Autobahn route through the corridor(weren't those the original demands anyway?).
That's giving the hangman the rope to hang you on. With that Pole would allow Germany to control and blackmail. Polish economy

Maybe it would be a case of Polish interbellum leaders haing more common sense than the average chicken. Germany was bigger, richer and more industrialised than Poland
France and Britain were bigger, richer and more industrialised than Germany and for past two centuries didn't try to eradicate Polish people.
So Poland made a reasonable decision.Even more so looking at WW2 in OTL. Allied with Nazi Germany it would not only lose its western territories but become a small Soviet puppet within the borders of Duchy of Warsaw.

Considering the trouble the german commies made after 1918 any reasonable German government should have worked 24/7 to prevent that from happening.
No German government before Hitler(ironically) tried to make any long term deals with Poland, prefering to divide it eventually with Soviet Union. As early as in 1920.

Meddling in Middle Europe: Britain and the 'Lands Between, 1919-1925 page 293
Miklós Lojkó - 2006
The German chancellor, also leader of the German Centre Party, went so far as telling Rantzau in October 1920 that a common boundary with Russia and the destruction of Poland should be the goal of German foreign policy
 
To prevent from happening again what happened in 1795? The USSR and Germany were weak in 1918 but who could forsee the situation in 1928 or 1938?
It is not entirely impossible to do so at a later date, but in 1918 or 1919? Poland aimed to secure the goodwill of the Entente as it was them that decided the peace terms and were supposed to enforce the peace treaty.
they could very well have ended up with OTL borders minus Danzig
Sorry to nitpick but the OTL Polish borders didn’t include Danzig.
but the Germans would have beena lot less pissed.
Less pissed enough to quell the drive to reclaim the lost territories?
 
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Poland dearly wanted to get into an alliance with Germany against Russia, if it weren't for Hitler wanting their land.

What Poland needed was to pull a North Korea. Develop WMDs and act crazy.
 
Probably doesn't count, but...


Stalin pulls a Red Alert, uniting all of Europe against the damn dirty commies. The alliance calls itself the Axis.:p
 
Hitler proposed this to Polish foreign minister in OTL, but was met with refusal.


That's giving the hangman the rope to hang you on. With that Pole would allow Germany to control and blackmail. Polish economy


France and Britain were bigger, richer and more industrialised than Germany and for past two centuries didn't try to eradicate Polish people.
So Poland made a reasonable decision.Even more so looking at WW2 in OTL. Allied with Nazi Germany it would not only lose its western territories but become a small Soviet puppet within the borders of Duchy of Warsaw.


No German government before Hitler(ironically) tried to make any long term deals with Poland, prefering to divide it eventually with Soviet Union. As early as in 1920.

Meddling in Middle Europe: Britain and the 'Lands Between, 1919-1925 page 293
Miklós Lojkó - 2006
The German chancellor, also leader of the German Centre Party, went so far as telling Rantzau in October 1920 that a common boundary with Russia and the destruction of Poland should be the goal of German foreign policy

Welcome back, Hurgan!
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
On the other hand, the Poles were no fans of Russians and they were governed by a right-wing military regime. As late as early-39 their relations with Germany were ok as far as I can tell, so what could lead to Poland being a willing participant in the destruction of the USSR?

Let´s start in WW1:

The Germany play the polish card sooner. When the war ends the Poles in return make fever demands on Germany, not least because they do not want to end up between two potentially more powerful, hostile nations ... again. This in return leads to Germany helping Poland against the USSR during the 1919-21 war, not least because the last thing the Germans want at their border is a satellite of the USSR. That is followed by a negotiated and rather non-violent sollution of the Upper Silesia conflict and last but not least they even reach a compromise on Danzig. The Poles agree to german sovereignty, the Germans agree to no more than a symbolic garrison and extraterritorrial polish acess to the port. Anything going to or comming from Poland is not taxed. Danzig could become the port of Poland, which would be beneficial to the economy of Danzig. And what do the Germans get in return? Maybe an extraterritorrial railroad line across the corridor?

This could go a long way to defuse tensions. With regard to the Jews, originally Hitler wanted them out not dead and IIRC the USSR was the object of his colonial fantasies. It was big enough for Finnland, Romania and Poland to get some slices too, wasn´t it.


I've always wanted to write a TL where a Soviet border violation during the Polish-Soviet war and a less succesfull Polish counter-offensive prompts a number of Freikorps (no Silesians for obvious reasons) to aid the Poles against the great enemy. Poland ends up quite a bit smaller but the bulk of lost territory goes to the Soviet Union and Poland ends up in a alliance led by a Stahlhelm Germany. Butterflies make for a Internationalist Soviet Union, a 'stalinist' Italy and a Turkey dismembered and communist.
 

Kristo

Banned
I've always wanted to write a TL where a Soviet border violation during the Polish-Soviet war and a less succesfull Polish counter-offensive prompts a number of Freikorps (no Silesians for obvious reasons) to aid the Poles against the great enemy. Poland ends up quite a bit smaller but the bulk of lost territory goes to the Soviet Union and Poland ends up in a alliance led by a Stahlhelm Germany. Butterflies make for a Internationalist Soviet Union, a 'stalinist' Italy and a Turkey dismembered and communist.

Realpolitics-in post-WW1 the remnants of German Empire cooperated with Bolsheviks against Poland. They were quite ok withi dividing it between German and Soviet Union.

During Bolshevik-Polish war for example Germany sheltered Bolshevik soldiers escaping Polish pursuits and gave intelligence to Bolsheviks regarding Poland.
 
Less pissed enough to quell the drive to reclaim the lost territories?

The drive to reclaim Posen was limited to the far right. But the other territories (West Prussia and East Upper Silesia) were more troublesome and to find a solution acceptable to both parties would indeed be hard.
 

Kristo

Banned
The drive to reclaim Posen was limited to the far right.
It's Poznan in English :) Anyway limited is funny-most of the German parties DNVP, DVP,German Centre Party, NSDAP were nationalist and wanted to annex or destroy Polish state. Together they were above 62% of the parties voters voted for in 1933:)
 
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