Poland and Czechoslovakia stand together against the Nazis

[Grimm Reaper]

After awarding sufficient arms to establish a Slovakian military and giving Hungary sufficient for a slim infantry corps, Hitler still obtained something on the order of arms for @20 infantry divisions and it is likely that a majority of the panzers that crushed Poland in 1939 were spoils of Munich.

Not to mention the massive arms industry in Prague.

 

[Hapsburg]

Emphasis mine:

Yugoslavia was allied to Poland? Given Poland's good relations with Italy and Hungary, I find this hard to believe.

Turkey was allied to The US? Given The US's good relations with Greece, I find this hard to believe.

Alliances can be tangled webs, and sometimes contradict each other. Sometimes, for mutual defence, some countries set aside lesser differences.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Emphasis mine:


Turkey was allied to The US? Given The US's good relations with Greece, I find this hard to believe.

Alliances can be tangled webs, and sometimes contradict each other. Sometimes, for mutual defence, some countries set aside lesser differences.

Alliances are usually aimed at someone. The US alliance with Greece and Turkey was initially aimed at the Soviet Bloc. And Greco-Turkish relations were actually very good at this time, it was later that Cyprus damaged them.

So what was the Polish-Yugoslav alliance supposed to counter? You can tell me that after you provide some sort of proof that there was one - even a quote from wiki would do.

 

[Calgacus]

Alliances are usually aimed at someone. The US alliance with Greece and Turkey was initially aimed at the Soviet Bloc. And Greco-Turkish relations were actually very good at this time, it was later that Cyprus damaged them.

So what was the Polish-Yugoslav alliance supposed to counter? You can tell me that after you provide some sort of proof that there was one - even a quote from wiki would do.

I don't think there was ever an actual alliance. Wiki says: "In the early 1920s, Romania, along with Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, initiated the Little Entente, an alliance whose primary goal was to counter Hungary's revanchism (which involved Romania's Transylvania). Romania's Foreign Minister, Take Ionescu, attempted to bring Poland and Greece into the alliance, but could not because of the border disagreements between Poland and Czechoslovakia."

I think it's pretty much a case of Poland being allied to Romania, and Romania at the same time being friendly with Yugoslavia. Not quite alliance material. As to whom an expanded Little Entente would have been aimed at, primarily Germany (and possibly also the Soviet Union).

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

As to whom an expanded Little Entente would have been aimed at, primarily Germany (and possibly also the Soviet Union).

Germany had territorial ambitions in Czechoslovakia and the USSR in Romania. Neither had any beef with Hungary, against whom the Little Entente was directed. I don't see the point.

 

[Calgacus]

Germany had territorial ambitions in Czechoslovakia and the USSR in Romania. Neither had any beef with Hungary, against whom the Little Entente was directed. I don't see the point.

The Little Entente was originally intended to counter Hungary. Never mind the fact that a bunch of schoolgirls armed with vegetables could probably have beaten the Hungarian Army at that stage, it was really more about countering any return of the Hapsburg monarchy. BUT, the French were also party to the alliance, and for reasons of their own, presuming that it would be a useful foil to German revanchism as well as Hungarian.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Never mind the fact that a bunch of schoolgirls armed with vegetables could probably have beaten the Hungarian Army at that stage, it was really more about countering any return of the Hapsburg monarchy.

I'll agree that it was overkill. Any of its members individually could defeat Hungary. But it would have been a different matter if Hungary had an ally or someone who simply jumped it to take advantage of the opportunity (Germany, the Soviet Union, Italy, Poland, Austria, Bulgaria, Albania). It might have been set up with such circumstances in mind... or maybe its members simply wanted to leave absolutely no doubt as to the outcome.

 

[Calgacus]

I'll agree that it was overkill. Any of its members individually could defeat Hungary. But it would have been a different matter if Hungary had an ally or someone who simply jumped it to take advantage of the opportunity (Germany, the Soviet Union, Italy, Poland, Austria, Bulgaria, Albania). It might have been set up with such circumstances in mind... or maybe its members simply wanted to leave absolutely no doubt as to the outcome.

Well yes, I think the purpose was preventive more than anything - so that Hungary would never even think it could win. The French no doubt thought it could kill two birds with one stone - deterring Germany as well. Some of the other members maybe thought it would deter the Soviets as well (Romania). Whether the rest of the Entente were thinking of Germany or the Soviet Union is another matter.

 

[seraphim74]

OK, let's forget Little Entente. Simply assume there is no Polish/Czechoslovakian debate about Zaolzie, Poland and Czechoslovakia have normal diplomatic relations, not too friendly, not too hostile. Both Prague and Warsaw look with growing nervousness at German armaments. Anschluss of Austria in March 1938 is a last call. When Hitler starts talking about Sudetenland, Poland and Czechoslovakia, with French blessing, sign mutual defense pact. Hitler is furious, but growing expenses force him to start a war or face economical disaster.
OTL Polish mathematicians broke earlier versions of Enigma code in 1932. In September 1938 Germans modified the code. Poles managed to break it a few months later. Then, in 1939 Germans modified their code again, and Polish cryptologists had not enough time to deal with it (basic method was the same, only they needed to make a lot of calculations - without computers). However, TTL in 1938, Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe still use code broken by Poles (Kriegsmarine already used modified version). Warsaw knows what enemy is planning and quickly warns Prague.
Hitler decides to start war in spring 1939, His first target is Poland - he believes that after defeating Poles Czechoslovakia will surrender. However, warned by Polish intelligence, both country mobilize their forces in time. Poles don't sell all their best fighters (PZL P-24) abroad, they also keep more anti-aircraft cannons 40mm Bofors (insted of selling them to...Britain).
So - in 1939 Hitler doesn't have at least 2 armoured divisions he had IOTL. His infantry is also weaker. What is worse, even if he sends main forces against Poland, he must keep some division to keep Czechoslovakian in check AND keep some divisions in west - what if France decides to intervene after all, even without British support?
When the war starts, Poles quickly learn to respect German Panzertruppen. OTOH, for Wehrmacht it isn't easy either. Every time their tanks meet entrenched Poles, casualties are enormous. While German mechanized columns push towards Warsaw, German infantry must deal with Polish forces - and German advantage is much, much smaller than IOTL. When the main German strike reaches outskirts of Warsaw, on their flanks fall Polish counterstrikes. General Kutrzeba's Army "Great Poland" attacks from north, Army "Kielce" with Polish only motorized brigade, reinforced by the remains of Army "Pilica" (defeated, but not destroyed by the first German attack) attacks from south. In the battle of Kutno Poles get get support of 2 Czechoslovakian fast divisions (cavalry/mechanized forces). Thanks to brave raids of Polish and Czechoslovakian fast units, German spearhead is cut off from supplies - especially fuel. Elite Panzertruppen became suddenly badly trained infantry.
In north Polish army "Pomerania" is defeated and pushed south, but not destroyed. However, Germans control Pomeranian corridor, with Polish Coastal Defense desperately fighting to the last shell. Army "Pomerania", reinforced by some reserves, is still able to cover army "Great Poland", while Kutrzeba keeps hammering von Runstedt's northern flank. Finally, German forces advancing to Warsaw are pushed buck, and one too adventurous armoured division is surrounded in Polish woods and forced to surrender.
Polish Navy after heroic, but short fight, is either destroyed or interned in Sweden. However, Poles managed to lay mines near Danzig port, which costs Germans some smaller ships and a lot of headache. Meanwhile in Gdynia and Hel Polish forces keep fighting.
Luftwaffe didn't manage to destroy Polish air force on its arfield (that didn't happen IOTL either), but attacked strategical targets in Poland and Czechoslovakia. German pilot suffered serious casualties, especially over Prague, when they met with Czechoslovakian fighter planes (better than Polish). As a revanche for bombing Polish and Czechoslovakian towns, Polish Bomber Brigade attacks targets in German Silesia, then lands in Czechoslovakia. Next evening Poles start from Czechoslovakian airfields, bomb Germany again and come home.
German minorities in Poland and Czechoslovakia either refuse to fight or actively hel Wehrmacht by sabotaging war effort of Poles and Czechoslovakians. Prague and Warsaw react quickly - most Germans in Silesia, Great Poland and Sudetenland are interned. There are some casualties, even atrocities.
Hitler asks Hungary to attack Czechoslovakia, promising Horthy pretty much anything he wants. But then Romania, backed by France, warns Budapest, that if they try to interfere, Romania will do it too. Romania doesn't act because of friendship towards Poland or Czechoslovakia. They simply are affraid that Hungarians demand from Hitler Transylvania as payment for their help. Besides, Hungarians aren't particularly interested in fighting Poles - traditional Polish-Hungarian firendship is still very strong.
So, after a month of fighting Hitler is not in good mood. Blitzkrieg didn't exactly work. Poles lost a lot of soldiers and equipment, but their losses are mostly infantry and cavalry, relatively easy to replace - especially with Czechoslovakian industry working all around the clock. Polish army is still able to fight. Germans, however, lost a lot of their tanks and tank crews.
Germany controlls Polish Corridor, western part of Great Poland and northern Masovia. Polish Silesia still resists, so does Polish Coastal Defence. Hitler publicly declares he is ready to make peace with Poland and Czechoslovakia, if he is allowed to keep most of already occupied territories. And Sudetenland. Despite British pression, Poland and Czechoslovakia refuse.
Meanwhile France wathces the war and decides, that after all Germans aren't so tough, and with most of their forces engaged in east, they very easy target. So France declares, that they will not allow their traditional (more or less) allies fight alone and start mobilization. German generals are terrified and decide to act. Organized under leadership of Canaris they overthrow Hitler and propose a cease-fire and then return to status quo ante bellum (pre-war status). Poland and Czechoslovakia agree, but they also demand compensation for their losses - some of it can be paid in military equipment. As minister Beck explains to German negotiators - "you won't need it anymore, will you?". With French forces on their western border and stallmate situation in east, Germans have to agree.

OK, I'm Polish, so it is a little Polonowank, even if not so unealistic. Oh, and the conduct of war is not toally mine - I borrowed a few ideas from an article by Wojciech Zalewski in "Taktyka i Strategia" about "Autumn War" - when POland defeats Germany in 1939....

 

[Tizoc]

Hitler decides to start war in spring 1939, His first target is Poland

It is really ingenious to attack Poland when rivers are at their all year high - instead of "barely there" water, as in September 1939, there'd be a lot of water in rivers, oh, and all of that lovely swamps...

Poles don't sell all their best fighters (PZL P-24) abroad

Ah, P-24. The main reason that Polish Air Force didn't buy them, was their Gnome-Rhone engines - they had a rather bad reputation. So if you want to get them flying for Poland, change the engine - maybe for Pratt&Whitney Twin Wasp.

Czechoslovakian fighter planes (better than Polish).

Er, what? Czechoslovakian Air Force had only biplane fighters at the time(Avia B-534: Vmax=360km/h, service ceiling - 9500m, range - 600km; 4MG). There was only one prototype of the modern monoplane fighter in late 1938 Czechoslovakia...

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by Tizoc.

It is really ingenious to attack Poland when rivers are at their all year high - instead of "barely there" water, as in September 1939, there'd be a lot of water in rivers, oh, and all of that lovely swamps...

Well, let's make it late spring then. After all, who could guarantee that summer 1939 will be sunny and dry? It could be also cold and wet, with a lot of rain... Besides, Hitler wasn't particularly patient man. IOTL he wanted to attack France in November 1939 - his generals managed to convince him to wait.

Ah, P-24. The main reason that Polish Air Force didn't buy them, was their Gnome-Rhone engines - they had a rather bad reputation. So if you want to get them flying for Poland, change the engine - maybe for Pratt&Whitney Twin Wasp.

Good point.

Er, what? Czechoslovakian Air Force had only biplane fighters at the time(Avia B-534: Vmax=360km/h, service ceiling - 9500m, range - 600km; 4MG). There was only one prototype of the modern monoplane fighter in late 1938 Czechoslovakia...

According to my sources Czechoslovakia had over 250 planes Avia B-534.4, with max. speed 416 km/h, max. ceilling 10600m, range 580 km. That made them faster than Polish P.11c and pretty much as fast as P-24. And Czechoslovakia had more of B-534.4 than Poles of P-24. And we shouldn't underestimate biplanes - remember Gloster Gladiator?

 

[Magnificate]

Seraphim, how would Russia react to all this fighting going on between Germany and Poland/Czechoslovakia?

 

[Susano]

I will just say, that the lands in question were part of Bohemia even under Austrian-Hungarian empire, and were part of the Lands of Bohemian crown since the 13th century. I would like to point out that until Nazi came to power, no question of entering Reich was in place. Hitler just used propaganda to do that. It's like having Mexicans in south of New Mexico and California vote for joining with Mexico...

Not true. The Sudeten German Party was popular in the Sudeten territories even before the rise of the NSDAP. The Sudeten Germans pretty much wanted to be nt part of Czechoslovakia from the beginning. Hence "German Austria" and its incluion of those territories, for example, but there have been calls for annextaion by Germany itself from the beginning, too. It was an eclatant violation of the then oh so often proclaimed self-determination of nations.

And really, who cares if it was for centuries part of Bohemia? To quote ASOIAF, "you could as well say it was so yesterday". That argument has no merit.

 

[HurganPL]

an eclatant violation of the then oh so often proclaimed self-determination of nations

Oh how funny Germany didn't care about it in Wielkopolska, Silesia and Pomorze...

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by Magnificate

Seraphim, how would Russia react to all this fighting going on between Germany and Poland/Czechoslovakia?

Hard to say, really. Soviets had quite good relations with Czechoslovakia and very bad relations with Poland. OTOH, Nazi Germany were still the greatest enemy of the communism.
Frankly, it really looks like in Suvorov's "Icebreaker": Hitler starts new war in Europe, everybody is weakened and then Red Army enters to "liberate" Europe.
Perhaps earlier version of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact? Hitler would have been ready to give more concessions, since he would have needed Stalin's help more. If it happens so, Poland and Czechoslovakia are screwed. Red Army in 1939 is pitifully incompetent, but really big numbers do count - especially with core of Polish Army fighting Germans.
Another possibility is Stalin invading eastern Poland, occupying it to Curzon's Line and then declaring "we have liberated our Belarussian and Ukrainian brothers, he have no more demands."
Other possibility: Stalin has no agreement with Hitler, Soviet Army stays in SU, watching "imperialists" fighting each other. After all, Red Army was still fresh after purges. IOTL in 1939 Soviets attacked Poland after Polish main forces were destroyed or defeated by Germans - they didn't expect too much fighting (and when there was fighting, Soviets had big problems). So Stalin waits and does...nothing.
If you have other ideas, I'm all ears.

 

[Calgacus]

Oh how funny Germany didn't care about it in Wielkopolska, Silesia and Pomorze...

He said "a" violation, not "the" violation. Plainly there were many. Which only goes to show that the system was flawed. Where were the plebiscites in Northern Ireland? Or in Dalmatia? Or in Veneto? The list is almost endless.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Oh how funny Germany didn't care about it in Wielkopolska, Silesia and Pomorze...

Are you going to jump in and harass all our German members?

 

[Kabraloth]

He said "a" violation, not "the" violation. Plainly there were many. Which only goes to show that the system was flawed. Where were the plebiscites in Northern Ireland? Or in Dalmatia? Or in Veneto? The list is almost endless.

They could have taken a clue from the Slovenians: when it was time to have a plebiscite, they ran the local Germans out of town, then voted. That was certainly smarter than not voting at all.

 

[Melior]

Oh, forget about Sudetenland. Leave that to historians and demagogues.. I'll agree the matter is complicated and both sides had their arguments.

Back to theme: One thing to go into account is: Due to expanded and stretched lines in German Silesia, will it be a base of operations to Fall Grun? If not, how this will affect blitzkrieg and encirclement of Polish forces? Good part of German forces which closed the pocket's were attacking from German Silesia and some from Slovak republic, which doesn't come to question here.

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was an hasty solution and Stalin agreed mainly because he seen the Western appeasment and Soviets had opinion better pact with Hitler than let West off. Possibility is, as said Seraphim before, that the pact didn't occur in TTL because Stalin didn't need to.

 

[HurganPL]

Which only goes to show that the system was flawed.

Sure, another thing was that while Germans complained Poland doesn't honour the Minorities Treaty, Germany itself never signed it, so it could do with Poles what it want without threat of complaint.

Are you going to jump in and harass all our German members?

Don't worry Susano has put me into his ignore list after I mentioned Nazi Germany's treatment of Poles and Jews in one thread, I was just pointing out how hypocritical the statement sounds.


As to possible war of Poland and Czechs with Germany-let us be sure-Stalin would move in once all sides would be exhausted from fighting.
Soviet Union did desire to annex former parts of Austrian and Russian Empire that were part of reborn Poland and such an occassion would be perfect opportunity.