Poland and Czechoslovakia stand together against the Nazis

[Grimm Reaper]

Poland's decision to go for Teschen ranks as one of the worst in modern history. Poland's claim was no better and arguably worse than Germany's claim on Danzig and the entire Polish Corridor.

So if Hitler had actually honored Munich by leaving a rump Czechia intact, Poland would have destroyed her case for not surrendering Danzig and much of the corridor and Poland's 'allies' would certainly have paid her off with a second Munich.

 

[HurganPL]

Poland's decision to go for Teschen ranks as one of the worst in modern history.

Why do you claim Polish protection of Poles from Germany is a bad decision ?

Poland's claim was no better and arguably worse than Germany's claim on Danzig and the entire Polish Corridor.

Yaaawn, majority of people in Polish Corridor were Poles not Germans.

So if Hitler had actually honored Munich by leaving a rump Czechia intact, Poland would have destroyed her case for not surrendering Danzig and much of the corridor and Poland's 'allies' would certainly have paid her off with a second M

I tried very hard but your sentence makes no sense. I don't understand what you want to say.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

HurganPL, Poland's claim on Teschen was no more valid than Germany's claim on Danzig. Actually since a majority in the Teschen district were not Poles and an overwhelming majority in Danzig were Germans, Germany's claim to Danzig was superior to Poland's claim to Teschen.

By seizing Teschen Poland effectively endorsed the moral rightness of surrendering Danzig to an oncoming German claim AND gave both England and Paris a justification for forcing such a surrender. Had Hitler not seized the remnant of the Czech Republic, thus leaving Munich intact, the British and French would certainly have given Poland the choice of surrendering to Hitler's demands or going to war without even the pretense of British or French alliances.

 

[HurganPL]

HurganPL, Poland's claim on Teschen was no more valid than Germany's claim on Danzig.

Yawn. Poland didn't had Gdańsk after the war.

Actually since a majority in the Teschen district were not Poles

http://web.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/lect12.htm

The Austrian census of 1910 showed a Polish-speaking majority in most of the duchy except for its furthest western part. The whole area is divided approximately in half by the Olza river, which runs through the town of Teschen. The Poles called the part west of the Olza "Zaolzie," or the land beyond the Olza.

By seizing Teschen Poland effectively endorsed the moral rightness of surrendering Danzig to an oncoming German claim

Why not. It wasn't Polish anyway and it wasn't what Hitler demanded from Poland.

Next time before arguing learn something about the topic please...

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Approximately two-thirds were not Polish in 1938.

HurganPL, I might comment that your habit of insulting anyone who disagrees with you is neither considerate nor pleasant. How about a bit more in the way of manners in the future?

 

[HurganPL]

GR-it would be welcomed if you did study the subject. It is very annoying when somebody claims Poland had to give Hitler Gdańsk before WW2

Approximately two-thirds were not Polish in 1938.

51 000 Poles 44 000 Czechs in 1939. Sorry.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

HurganPL, forget it.

If basic respect is beyond you, then there is really no reason to waste my time. And if you consider yourself well-educated and well-informed yet think Poland had a right to Danzig in 1939 superior to Prague's claim on Teschen in 1938 then I'm really wasting my time. Later!

 

[HurganPL]

And if you consider yourself well-educated and well-informed yet think Poland had a right to Danzig in 1939

Poland neither had nor claimed Gdańsk in 1939 prior to WW2. I think you should seriously study the subject. Otherwise I am starting to suspect you are doing this on purpose.

 

[Calgacus]

Poland neither had nor claimed Gdańsk in 1939 prior to WW2. I think you should seriously study the subject. Otherwise I am starting to suspect you are doing this on purpose.

Yawn. You should call it Danzig - that was its name at the time. If you persist in using Wilno, that is. Either Wilno/Danzig or Danzig/Gdańsk. It's only polite.

 

[Croesus]

Yawn. Poland didn't had Gdańsk after the war.

http://web.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/lect12.htm

Next time before arguing learn something about the topic please...

HurganPL. Clearly you have some understanding of the period in question and your dialectic is reasonably solid. You perhaps could assume that you are dealing with fellow scholars or academics when conducting your lines of reasoning as your condescension is proving damaging to your argument.

It is helpful and constructive to cite sources so that others may gain an appreciation to your thinking; it is also helpful and constructive to provide a fuller treatment when posting rather than a series of quotes and retorts. I'm sure that you have done work on the subject but until I can see your expertise in its fullness its hard to give you credence.

Croesus

 

[Jasen777]

It's also considered polite to not hijack every thread that mentions Poland (or in some cases Russia or Germany).

I think a Poland-Czechoslovakia alliance in '39 would have a good chance to stop Germany.

 

[TotrueTufaar]

Romania was also allied to both of them by Mutual Protection Treaties, as was Yugoslavia. If they decided that the Axis at an early stage was a serious threat, they might have all embargoed Germany and Italy of petroleum.

 

[Melior]

Hi

There's a wikipedia source on the Czechoslovak-Polish disputes on the region of Tsechen, it's in english, polish and czech...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Czechoslovak_border_conflicts

Read thru it please, and you will see that Poland and Czechoslovakia had settled on the border issue in 30'ies - so that the Polish claim was denying all previous dealings...

Problem is that the Little Entete (the treaties between Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania and FRANCE) were directed against Hungary more than Germany. And treaties were still in effrect when FRANCE as ALLY of Czechoslovakia forced it to surrender Sudeten to Germany.

HurganPL: does it come to your mind that by justifiyng the Polish claim on Teschen region, you are doing two things. 1st denying that the region, and also the part that was polish then, was since 14th century part of Crown Lands of Bohemia? and 2nd justifying Hitler's claim on Sudeten based on same obscure "desire of German minority" to join into the Reich?

GR: it's Czechoslovakia between the '38 and '39 it still is Cezcho-Slovakia (note the difference) and after that it's Slovak republic and Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. after WW2 it's again Czechoslovakia. Czech republic it's since January 1st, 1992.


anyway, back to theme. The alliance would have been done in '37, more like '38 earliest, as it is the first time when both countries would be enough smart to see Hitler as common enemy. Before then, their own disputes would prevent them. So it takes some time, until '39, or '40 perhaps, to supply arms and equip Poland. At the same time however, Czechoslovakia army was reequiping with those tanks, mainly models LT38, so there won't be much to give away to poland. Most probably older LT35 designs. What could be more effective is Hitler and his general staff fearing the possibility of broad-front war that they don't go to war in case Czechoslovakia (in TTL backed-up by Poland) refuses to give to German claims on Sudeten.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Romania was also allied to both of them by Mutual Protection Treaties, as was Yugoslavia.

Yugoslavia was allied to Poland? Given Poland's good relations with Italy and Hungary, I find this hard to believe.

 

[Susano]

Hi
HurganPL: does it come to your mind that by justifiyng the Polish claim on Teschen region, you are doing two things. 1st denying that the region, and also the part that was polish then, was since 14th century part of Crown Lands of Bohemia? and 2nd justifying Hitler's claim on Sudeten based on same obscure "desire of German minority" to join into the Reich?

Vast majority in the Sudeten regions, and hardly an "obscure" desire, but a fully valid (in a democratic order) wish of the people.

Oh, and as for naming conventions, I say every people should use whatever the name in their language is. So Hurgan may call it Gdansk, and I will still call it Danzig even when refering to the state of affairs nowadays.

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by Susano

Oh, and as for naming conventions, I say every people should use whatever the name in their language is. So Hurgan may call it Gdansk, and I will still call it Danzig even when refering to the state of affairs nowadays.

I say we should use English names - after all, we all write in English. If there is a dilemma, like in Gdańsk case, we should use Danzig/Gdańsk (of Gdańsk/Danzig) just to help other members of our board understand what we actually mean. E.g. if I wrote only "Budziszyn", how many people would know that I meant today's Bautzen? Or If I wrote Królewiec, how many people would know I meant Konigsberg? And if Susano wrote "Bromberg", how many people would know it is "Bydgoszcz"? And those are only examples of Polish/German names.

Now, back to the topic.
Germany's strategic situation is much worse. Wehrmacht in 1938 was much weaker than in 1939. After conquering Czech, Germans captured equipment for at least 30 infantry divisions! Not to mention additional artillery, tanks, cars and trucks, planes, other strategic supplies and of course Czechoslovakian industry. In case of Polish-Czechoslovakian alliance all those factors work against Germany! More to the point, German Panzertruppen are not fully operational yet.
IOTL in 1939 Poland was surrounded by German-controlled territories, TTL in 1938 German Silesia is in danger being trapped between Poland and Czechoslovakia. In 1938 Czechoslovakia had about 30 infantry divisions, very good border fortifications, 4 fast divisions (combined cavalry and mechanized units), quite powerful air force. Poland could mobilize another 40 infantry divisions, 11 cavalry brigades and 1 motorized brigade. With Czechoslovakian supplies, I think Poles could organize at least 10 more infantry divisions, however, as Melior rightfully noted,it would take some time - but perhaps no as much as he thinks.
There are also other factors to consider. E.g. Slovakians. After German invasion a Slovakian puppet-state was created. Does anyone knows what Slovakians attitude in that time was? Could alliance with Poland help Prague to surpress Slovakian discontent?
Another problem is how would the rest of Europe react. If there was no Munich Agreement and invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1939, Hitler isn't discredited yet as an oathbreaker. Britaina and France wouldn't be happy if their Central-European allies started another war. Well, they would have started it, but German proaganda would say so, and considering ultrapacifist tendencies in 1930s Europe, Poland and Czechoslovakia could have been blamed as guilty of starting another bloodshed. What would France do? How would Chamberlain react? British didn't care much about Central Europe and appeasement was still their policy.
OTOH, Hitler could simply back off. Facing combined forces of Poland and Czechoslovakia doesn't promise quick and relatively easy victory. So he gives up, for a time, and shouts all over the world how cruel Poles and Czechoslovakians are towards Germans, how he wants only peace and those country are threatening him etc. And many people could believe him.
But, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, Germany needed to expand, to conquer, or it would simply go bankrupt. So perhaps war was inevitable. In that case...
I think that in 1938 Germany wasn't strong enough to attack in the same time Poland and Czechoslovakia. I believe they would have started with Poland (better terrain for a blitzkrieg) keeping Czechoslovakia at bay with second-rate units. With Poland defeated (if it had happened) Czechoslovakia would have been alone. Unless France would finally react.
In short, Poland and Czechoslovakia together could stop Hitler for some time, but I'm not sure if they were able to defeat him.

 

[Melior]

Vast majority in the Sudeten regions, and hardly an "obscure" desire, but a fully valid (in a democratic order) wish of the people.

I will just say, that the lands in question were part of Bohemia even under Austrian-Hungarian empire, and were part of the Lands of Bohemian crown since the 13th century. I would like to point out that until Nazi came to power, no question of entering Reich was in place. Hitler just used propaganda to do that. It's like having Mexicans in south of New Mexico and California vote for joining with Mexico...

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I will just say, that the lands in question were part of Bohemia even under Austrian-Hungarian empire, and were part of the Lands of Bohemian crown since the 13th century. I would like to point out that until Nazi came to power, no question of entering Reich was in place. Hitler just used propaganda to do that. It's like having Mexicans in south of New Mexico and California vote for joining with Mexico...

One Problem to Holding onto it though ...

Sudetenland Germans, Made up a Significant Part of The Czechoslovakian Army ...

If it Comes to War Do they Actually Fight, And if So for Whom?

 

[Valdemar II]

I will just say, that the lands in question were part of Bohemia even under Austrian-Hungarian empire, and were part of the Lands of Bohemian crown since the 13th century. I would like to point out that until Nazi came to power, no question of entering Reich was in place. Hitler just used propaganda to do that. It's like having Mexicans in south of New Mexico and California vote for joining with Mexico...

Which I doubt Susano would have a problem with.

 

[Kabraloth]

I will just say, that the lands in question were part of Bohemia even under Austrian-Hungarian empire, and were part of the Lands of Bohemian crown since the 13th century. I would like to point out that until Nazi came to power, no question of entering Reich was in place. Hitler just used propaganda to do that. It's like having Mexicans in south of New Mexico and California vote for joining with Mexico...

You know this is just how the USA expanded during the 19th century. Immigrate, seperate, annex.