Poland and Czechoslovakia stand together against the Nazis

In OTL I believe that Hitler persuaded Poland to sign a non aggression treaty and transferred a small amount of Czechoslovakia to Poland after Munich.

But WI both states had recognized the evil they faced. Poland had a big population and Czechoslakia a modern armaments industry.

Could such an alliance have significantly resisted Hitler?
 

Borys

Banned
Ahoj!
Could such an alliance have significantly resisted Hitler?
Yes.
In 1938 and early 1939 they would had beaten Germany on their own.
In late 1939 they probably win.
In 1940 - depends how much weapons the Czechs manage to produce for the Poles and the Polish army learning to use them - either 50-50 or German victory
In 1941 and further on - Germany will probably win.

This is pure Germany vs. Poland/Czechoslovakia, with no outsiders.

Borys
 
There's however one problem-Czechoslovakia and Poland weren't friends before WWII. In matter of fact Poland annexed a part of Czechoslovakia when Germans took control over that country.
 

HurganPL

Banned
In matter of fact Poland annexed a part of Czechoslovakia when Germans took control over that country.
In a matter of fact that was disputed territory Czechs annexed when Poland was invaded by Bolsheviks after WW1.
 
In a matter of fact that was disputed territory Czechs annexed when Poland was invaded by Bolsheviks after WW1.

Yes but if Poland never annexs those territories then a alliance would be possible so if one could find a way to tone down Pilsudski's plans for a super Poland then maybe you could have a chance.
 
In a matter of fact that was disputed territory Czechs annexed when Poland was invaded by Bolsheviks after WW1.

Bright day
As a fact that was disputed territory awarded to Czechoslovakia by French arbitrage, some of it crucial to Czechoslovakia's survival (Spiš region, where railroad was laid0. Also Poles took more territory, than Těšín and Spiš.
 

HurganPL

Banned
Bright day! Education for free:

http://web.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/lect12.htm
The Austrian census of 1910 showed a Polish-speaking majority in most of the duchy except for its furthest western part. The whole area is divided approximately in half by the Olza river, which runs through the town of Teschen. The Poles called the part west of the Olza "Zaolzie," or the land beyond the Olza.
On November 5, 1918, an agreement was signed by local Polish and Czech Councils, dividing the Duchy of Teschen along ethnic lines, i.e. Polish and Czech.William J. Rose (1885-1968) a Canadian Quaker, who had been interned in Teschen by Austrian authorities in 1914, participated in drawing up this agreement, and then went to London to report on it. (See Daniel Stone, ed., THE POLISH MEMOIRS OF WILLIAM JOHN ROSE, Toronto, 1975, ch. 3). Rose later became a historian of Poland.
In December 1918, Jozef Pilsudski, Head of the Polish state, sent a small delegation to Prague with a proposal to negotiate an amicable settlement on Zaolzie. Masaryk met briefly with the delegates, agreed that negotiations for an amicable settlement were desirable, and told them to discuss the matter with members of the Czechoslovak government. However, the latter did not want to negotiatiate so the delegates returned to Warsaw empty-handed. (For this episode, see Wandycz book in bibliography below).
Here we should note that Masaryk and most Czechs believed that all of western Teschen, including the preponderantly Polish Zaolzie, should belong to Czechoslovakia for three reasons: (a) it was part of the historic lands of the Bohemian Crown, and Benes had obtained French recognition that all these lands should go to Czechoslovakia (although the French did not realize at the time that this included Teschen); (b) because good coking coal and a steel mill were deemed vital to the Czechoslovak economy, while the Poles were expected to get the same with eastern Upper Silesia in a peace conference award from Germany; (c) they pointed to the fact that the only railway line connecting Bohemia-Moravia with Slovakia went through Zaolzie.
The Polish government emphasized the predominantly Polish character of the region, but also believed that Poland needed the coal and steel. Furthemore, it argued that a branch railway line could be built elsewhere to connect Bohemia-Moravia with Slovakia.
In late December 1918, the Polish government proclaimed elections to the Constituent Assembly and the designated electoral districts included Zaolzie. The Czechoslovak government feared the elections would demonstrate the preponderantly Polish character of the region, and so decided to seize it. Czech troops were sent into Zaolzie in January 1919. The local Polish troops were too weak to offer effective resistance and could not be reinforced because Polish troops were then fighting the Ukrainians for the city of Lwow (Ukr. L'viv) in East Galicia. The Czechs occupied the disputed territory, but the allied powers forced them to leave.
In the period January 1919-end July 1920, there were several Polish and Czech attempts to resolve the problem peacefully, either by plebiscite or by arbitration, but no agreement was reached. Finally, as the Red Army was advancing on Warsaw in early July 1920, the Polish delegation went to Spa, Belgium, to ask the allied leaders for aid against the Soviets. The Poles agreed to submit the Teschen dispute to the Conference of Ambassadors in Paris. They did not know that Benes had secretly obtained French and British agreement to his proposal that the Ambassadors' Conference would simply award the disputed area to Czechoslovakia in return for his promise to allow the transit of French military supplies to Poland. However, Benes did not fulfill this promise and Czechoslovak railwaymen continued to block the supplies. *
*(For the Franco-British-Czech deal on Zaolzie, see Anna M. Cienciala and Titus Komarnicki, From Versailles to Locarno. Keys to Polish Foreign Policy from Versailles to Locarno, Univ. Press of Kansas, Lawrence, Ks., 1984, p. 171).
The decision of the Conference of Ambassadors, July 28, 1920, to award Western Teschen (Zaolzie) to Czechoslovakia without a plebiscite or arbitration, was a shock to the Poles and remained an unhealed wound. The Czechoslovak government always refused to negotiate the issue. It also refused to consider an alliance with Poland in the 1920's, when the Poles were interested in it. Masaryk and Benes believed that Poland would have to cede some territory to Germany and the USSR, so they did not want an alliance with her which would antagonize Berlin and Moscow. Finally, the Czechs implemented a policy of Czech assimilation to the Poles of Zaolzie, that is, they were pressured to declare themselves Czechs and send their children to Czech schools if they wanted to keep their jobs and avoid being transferred to other parts of the country.
 

Borys

Banned
Ahoj!
BTA - Piłsudzki's "super Poland" was an attempt to revive the Old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It is a complicated matter, and I cannot explain in several sentences. It was not to be a super-Poland, it would be a union of several peoples. Lke in the Olden Days before 1791. Think UK.

Borys
 
Not exactly. Piłsudski wanted to recreate Poland as a leader of a group of independent states, including Belarus, Ukraine and Baltic states. "Super Poland" or "Old Commonwealrh" reborn were a dream of ND (Narodowa Demokracja - National Democracy, Polish nationalists).

Originally posted by Borys
In 1938 and early 1939 they would had beaten Germany on their own.
In late 1939 they probably win.
In 1940 - depends how much weapons the Czechs manage to produce for the Poles and the Polish army learning to use them - either 50-50 or German victory
In 1941 and further on - Germany will probably win.
This is pure Germany vs. Poland/Czechoslovakia, with no outsiders.

I wouldn't be so sure about German victory in 1941. In 1930s Poland started a rearmament program and created COP (Centralny Okręg Przemysłowy - Central Industrial Region) as a industrial basis for it. And now we're talking about an alliance that have not only COP but also powerful Czechoslovakian industry at its disposal. What is more important Germany doesn't get Czechoslovakian factories and military equipment. Remeber, in 1939 (OTL), best German tanks Panzer 38 were actually Czechoslovakian. Now, some of those tanks go to Poles.
Oh, and one more thing. I do not know much about economy, but I think in 1941 Germany would have been bankrupt because of all those armaments.
 
Oh, and one more thing. I do not know much about economy, but I think in 1941 Germany would have been bankrupt because of all those armaments.

I agree - the costs would be terribly high.

If we put aside Czechoslovakian - Polish conflict about territory alliance of those two countries would be pretty strong military power, of course if we think only about fight with Germans. In such a case even if allied armies couldn't defeat Germans they would fight long enough for France and England to decide about joining the fight. Still, there's Russia...
 
We've been over the Zaolzie thing before. It's a little ridiculous to quibble about that when the Poles occupied areas of Lithuanian and Ukrainian majority. Still though, the area was majority Polish, and one can see why they were upset - it definitely messed up the chances of alliance.

Theoretically then, if the French awarded most of the region to Poland (I think 70%?) then they might have been keener on alliance with the Czechs - and the Czechs might have had to get close to Poland to safeguard their interests in the border area? I'm pretty sure relations before that point were good. So, what effect would a Polish Zaolzie have on relations?
 
I think an agreement in the mid 30's that Hitler was a bigger problem than territorial diputes could see a Pole-Czech alliance that could resist Germany in their danger period of 1938-9. Equipping their respective armies with the best they have between them could empower both, and with a strong and close ally both could defy German demands. But this power would wane as Germany became stronger, the combination of Poland and Czechoslovakia isn't as powerful as France or Italy and they were overshadowed by Germany.
 

HurganPL

Banned
It's a little ridiculous to quibble about that when the Poles occupied areas of Lithuanian and Ukrainian majority.
Lithuanian ? Where did you get that idea from. Sure they were some Ukrainian majority regions in Stanislawow and Wolyn that Poland gained as result of Peace of Riga but never and nowhere Lithuanian. Lithuanians were a tiny minority in Wilno region of Poland making up 5% of population there. Where did you get that strange idea from ?
 
Lithuanian ? Where did you get that idea from. Sure they were some Ukrainian majority regions in Stanislawow and Wolyn that Poland gained as result of Peace of Riga but never and nowhere Lithuanian. Lithuanians were a tiny minority in Wilno region of Poland making up 5% of population there. Where did you get that strange idea from ?

Ah, I should have specified - Belarussian and Lithuanian. You're right of course that Lithuanians were a smaller minority. Smaller after the Polish takeover than before.
 

HurganPL

Banned
Ah, I should have specified - Belarussian and Lithuanian.
Belarussians also formed a minority, only Ukrainians had regions where they were in majority.

Ah, I should have specified - Belarussian and Lithuanian.
Because the region in Poland was not the region within Russian Empire and German Empire so it had a smaller population.
But even then Lithuanians were only 17%-18% of population.
 
German census of Wilno 1916-Lithuanians 2,6%
Polish census of Wilno 1931-Lithuanians-5,2%



Belarussians also formed a minority, only Ukrainians had regions where they were in majority.

Really? Even along the borders? I am amazed.

And I was talking about the city of Vilnius/Wilno itself.
 

HurganPL

Banned
Really? Even along the borders? I am amazed.
In defined regions. And yes I am not surpised you are amazed.

And I was talking about the city of Vilnius/Wilno itself.
And I was talking about the city of Vilnius/Wilno itself
Oh please:D
Russian Census 1897-2.1%
German Census 1916-2,6%
Polish Census 1931-0,8% (1,579 people to be exact)

Btw:what is the reason for your grudge against Poland ?
 
In defined regions. And yes I am not surpised you are amazed.


Oh please:D
Russian Census 1897-2.1%
German Census 1916-2,6%
Polish Census 1931-0,8% (1,579 people to be exact)

Btw:what is the reason for your grudge against Poland ?

I have no grudge against Poland. Broadly I am more sympathetic to Poland than to most countries, as I know what a hard time the country has had historically. Makes me glad Scotland is out here at the end of the world.
It's just when I hear such strident nationalism and hatred/paranoia of other countries for things that happened well in the past, I feel the need to point out that no-one's perfect.

And the figures you posted show a decline in the Lithuanian population of Wilno, pretty much proving my point. In any case, I understand there is some doubt cast over the census results by the work of Eduard Czyński, showing a possibly much larger Lithuanian-speaking population in Wilno (in 1909 I think).

In any case, it doesn't really matter - my initial point was backed up well enough by the Ukrainian example.
 

HurganPL

Banned
It's just when I hear such strident nationalism and hatred/paranoia of other countries for things that happened well in the past,
Oh goodnes, I hope we never will see it here.

And the figures you posted show a decline in the Lithuanian population of Wilno,
Really ? And what was population of Wilno in 1916 compared to 1931 ? It could just as well be that the population increased.
I feel the need to point out that no-one's perfect.
You would apply that to even Jewish people when talking about WW2 ?

In any case, I understand there is some doubt cast over the census results by the work of Eduard Czyński, showing a possibly much larger Lithuanian-speaking population in Wilno (in 1909 I think).
Try what you want, untill Poles were ethnicly cleansed in WW2 and Lithuanians settled there, Lithuanian popualtion was a tiny minority compared to Poles.
my initial point was backed up well enough by the Ukrainian example.
Nope it doesn't since there was no Ukrainian state unlike Polish one, unfortunetly. However Pilsudski was prepared for such a scenario, Wolyn region before the war where Ukrainians were in majority enjoyed quite liberal policies towards them and he would accept it as base for statehood activity of Ukrainians in Soviet occupied Ukraine.
 
You would apply that to even Jewish people when talking about WW2 ?

Nope it doesn't since there was no Ukrainian state unlike Polish one, unfortunetly. However Pilsudski was prepared for such a scenario, Wolyn region before the war where Ukrainians were in majority enjoyed quite liberal policies towards them and he would accept it as base for statehood activity of Ukrainians in Soviet occupied Ukraine.

1) No, because there wasn't a Jewish state. Of course the Nazis and Soviets were worse than anyone else (by a large degree) but you are not absolved of everything just because someone else has persecuted you. It's not hard to understand.

2) And when did that continue until?
 
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