Poison Gas in WW2

What would have happened if Germany had used its nerve gases in WW2?

In the years leading up to WW2 the Germans had developed the nerve agents Tabun and Sarin. These agents were far more deadly than previous chemical weapons because 1) The concentrations needed to kill were far smaller 2) They could be absorbed through the skin. Britian had no countermeasures simply because they didn't know the stuff existed, let alone that Germany was weaponising it.

By 1944 Hitler had stockpiled enough Tabun to 'kill everone in London' (from The history of chemical warfare and yet didn't use them because he believed that Britain also possessed nerve agents and so little was to be gained by using them.

Had the German intelligence been better or if Churchill had sanctioned gas attacks against german cities (as he considered after the first V1 launches), could Hitler have used his nerve agents to devestating effect? Would Britain have capitulated as Japan did when presented with a weapon of mass destruction? or would it have made little difference?
 
If the German use of gas happens in 1944 nothing is changed, except that probably Patton is unleashed to drive toward Berlin as fast as possible. German defeat by that time can not be reversed. I also suspect that there would be more intensive Allied bombings of likely V-1 and V-2 launch sites.

There was an AH novel where the Germans do invade Britain and the British restort to gas to defend themselves.
 
no doubt. brits throw in the towel in a pre US entry in war if germany uses chemical weapons

assured, the war in the east would a whole lot nastier cause the genie is out the bottle :eek:
 
Logistics. Study logistics.

Gas is effective because it hampers fire fighting. You dump a mixture of gas and incendiaries and the firefighters can't fight fires because the protective clothing for mustard gas and phosgene is too hot and too heavy for mobility. The same thing goes for Tabun and Sarin.

Britain had access to fuels to keep it's trucking fleet going if the factories were dispersed. Germany did not have access to even one tenth as much fuel. Germany couldn't run it's economy without motor transportation, though god knows they tried.

Everywhere in Europe is in range of British airplanes, but not everywhere in the Commonwealth is in range of German airplanes. Britain can keep fighting without cities in Britain, but Germany cannot keep fighting without cities in Europe.

It's a net loss to Germany, which is why they didn't do it. The question is why we didn't do it. I certainly don't see the difference between nuking Hiroshima and gassing Berlin.
 
Timing is everything

I have a couple of thoughts:
Gas was outlawed by treaty, and genuinely loathed by Hitler--he did serve on the western front, and was gassed. Neither side wanted to start down this road, although both were prepared.
All that's needed is a way go bring out the gas at a particular time, and then we can play with the consequences. Here is one tragic POD that I think would result in widespread gas warfare.
Th Luftwaffe is pounding British airfields. Invasion fear is widespread throughout Britian. A supply of mustard gas is being transported to a new location so it's ready when German troops storm ashore.
As the trucks are passing close to a populated area, bombs strike, hittig the town, and the convoy. Mustard gas is released, and there are numerous dead and injured. Word of German gas reaches Churchill, as dozend of victims are brought to hospital--there's no doubt that it was gas that got them.
The people that sent the convoy don't realize what happened--that it was British gas that caused te casualties. As these reports of German atrocities spread, the order is given to retaliate.
Now Germany is taken by surprise as gas bombs fall, mixed in with incindaries. They naturally retailiate, and things spiral out of control.
By the time anyon in Britan realized what started it (if they ever do) it would be swept under the rug, and not come out until after the war.
With a gas war raging in Europe, the USA woul most likely prepare more thoroughly for gas, as would Japan. Possible use of gas in the Pacific to support Japan's advance on the western Pacific as well?
 
Why the gas is used

I have a couple of thoughts:
Gas was outlawed by treaty, and genuinely loathed by Hitler--he did serve on the western front, and was gassed. Neither side wanted to start down this road, although both were prepared.
All that's needed is a way go bring out the gas at a particular time, and then we can play with the consequences. Here is one tragic POD that I think would result in widespread gas warfare.
Th Luftwaffe is pounding British airfields. Invasion fear is widespread throughout Britian. A supply of mustard gas is being transported to a new location so it's ready when German troops storm ashore.
As the trucks are passing close to a populated area, bombs strike, hittig the town, and the convoy. Mustard gas is released, and there are numerous dead and injured. Word of German gas reaches Churchill, as dozend of victims are brought to hospital--there's no doubt that it was gas that got them.
The people that sent the convoy don't realize what happened--that it was British gas that caused te casualties. As these reports of German atrocities spread, the order is given to retaliate.
Now Germany is taken by surprise as gas bombs fall, mixed in with incindaries. They naturally retailiate, and things spiral out of control.
By the time anyon in Britan realized what started it (if they ever do) it would be swept under the rug, and not come out until after the war.
With a gas war raging in Europe, the USA woul most likely prepare more thoroughly for gas, as would Japan. Possible use of gas in the Pacific to support Japan's advance on the western Pacific as well?
 
Proposed poison gas use in Pacific

I remember reading 10 yrs ago in a book on biochem warfare that the US was proposing to use poison gas in the Pacific, before US Marines were landed, against well-dug-in Jap defenders on Central Pacific islands like Tarawa, Saipan, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima, but the plan was vetoed by FDR on humanitarian grounds, altho the JCS argued that using poison gas would save American lives. WI the US had actually employed chem weapons against Jap island strongholds ? How would the campaign in the Pacific have been affected, and the overall strategic progression of the war there ?
 
I read in a book by Ralph Giordano about Hitler's plans that he contacted Churchill in 1944(?) for a seperate peace. Contents: Germany gives a guarantee for the British empire ("since you're still our aryan fellows..."), and Britain helps Germany to hold the Eastern front along the line Memel-Kaschau (Kosice). Hitler also told that he wanted to gas a corridor along that line to stop the Red Army. Churchill's answer was: "Do that and we'll throw our gas on your cities!"
 
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Stalingrad battle solution

Nerve gas, mustard gas or other nerve agents could have been a military solution for the Stalingrad battle. The German 6th army was completely surrounded, out of food, out of ammunition and in a large Russian city. The question was: what might the military solution have been to this battle. Historically, If I were to hand you the Stalingrad battle and ask you for a military solution to save the German 6th army what would be your military solution?? Mine would be poison gas. Military strategists study old military battles and try to "solve" the military problem as it existed using existing and available resources. Poison gas use by the Germans in the city of Stalingrad would have been part of the answer. Obviously once the poison gas was used in a particular city section the follow up would have been the entrance of German divisions into the area to clear the area of Russion soldiers. German soldiers had gas masks, Russian soldiers did not. Germany had poison gas stockpiles and Russians did not. Yes poison gas is highly unstable. The wind does change and send the gas to poison the wrong army, but German soldiers had gas masks but poison gas in a city would were the enemy was hidden in buildings and rooms was a solution. I believe that German air deliveries early on should have provided poison gas deliveries to General Paulus to save the 900,000 men. What a waste.
 
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Holy SHIT. Talk about a blast from the past.

ThreadNecroCArd.jpg


I believe that German air deliveries early on should have provided poison gas deliveries to General Paulus to save the 900,000 men. What a waste.

I, on the other hand, am relatively pleased that the Nazis lost that war.

Besides, the air transport was so strained by the logistical effort that they could not spare room for big stocks of poison gas.
 
Great card...

That's funny. And it also necro's a GAME I stopped caring about a few weeks, at best, after it was introduced. "Magic: the Adiction," I think it was, or else, "Crack: The Gathering."
 
I like the idea just before the invasion of st.peters-burg german rockets carry nerve gas. A weapon that is silent and nothing can protect you-nerve gas.
After a few days, this stuff has dissipated, and the pepper it with normal mustard gas. They then pepper the possible points for advance from the red army with nerve and mustard gas.
Course for ne it is simply the rule of cool.
 
I'm not so sure. Although in theory gas masks were issued to German troops as standard, as I understand it, most ditched them as soom as they possibly could and instead used the tins for carrying whatever food they could acquire.
So given this, you would have to start by re-issuing gas masks, (the Soviets would hear about this and draw the logical conclusion), then bring the stocks up through occupied Poland, Ukraine etc, (again, Soviet intelligence was not that inept as to not see this coming), before transporting them through Russia itself to (as the example given), Stalingrad, then get to use them, if during the journey the Partisans hadn't destroyed them, you have to persuade the Generals, mostly WWI veterans and versed in the horrors of gas weapons to use them
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You face another issue - IIRC, most Bio/Chem weapons have a very narrow band of effective deployment, temperature can't be too high or too low, the wind can't be too strong, can't be raining/snowing etc making their use in the Caucus regions nigh on impossible.

Gas in the Eastern front - no.

The Japanese did experiment with biological weapons in Manchuria and China but nothing too heavy in the end.
 
By 1944 Hitler had stockpiled enough Tabun to 'kill everone in London' (from The history of chemical warfare and yet didn't use them because he believed that Britain also possessed nerve agents and so little was to be gained by using them.

If the Germans conduct gas strikes against Britain two things will happen. In the short term, the British will respond with gas attacks of their own. In the long term, Churchill will push for and probably get authorization for Operation Vegetarian. The Germans msay be able to depopulate London, but the British can at least in theory depopulate most of Germany.
 
Any gas useage on the eastern front would see retaliation not just from the Soviets, but from the Western Allies also. Seeing as the Western Allies have an advantage in air power, the death toll among the civilian German population would get quite horrific as the strategic bombing campaign takes on a new dimension...
 
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