PoDs to prevent recent animal extinctions?

Mechadogzilla

I'm not speaking of avoiding the extinction of prehistoric animals like the Mammoth, but rather ones that went extinct in the past few hundred years. Animals like the Quagga, Barbary Lion, Thylacine, Dodo, etc. Even if we go back to the 1627 there were still wild Aurochs in Poland (though from what I gather they were well below replacement levels for decades). Is there a way that some of these animals can be saved, if only in captivity? Perhaps an earlier conservation movement that starts in the 1800s? It's not like huge numbers are needed, the American Bison had less than 1,000 individuals at one point and has over 30,000 today.

Many of these animals would go extinct because they interfered with humans, especially European colonists. So any PoD that limits colonialism, slows it down, or creates a more ecologically 'friendly' form of colonialism could help as well.
 

Peppe

Maybe have the West never have the belief that animals were created by God to serve man? That wouldn't make everything better for the animals but I imagine not have a feeling like you have a carte blanche to do anything you want with animals, or even that they are just as deserving of life and comfort as you (depending on how much this change can be stretched), could make Christians at least less open to just going willy-nilly killing animals for sport, pelt or because they taste good.
 

Jan Olbracht

Aurochs were under protection in Poland since late Medieval era (only Kings of Poland had right to hunt them, but they rarely did, being more interested in preservation of that species), same with wisent/European bison.

What saved wisent was the fact, that after they were excint in the wild (during ww1, Russian Civil War and Polish-Bolshevik war all wild wisents were killed by soldiers and poachers) there were enough animals in captivity to restore species-not many-current wisent population descended from 15 animals. That proves, that even large mammal could be saved with little more than dozen animals left.
 

Mechadogzilla

Jan Olbracht said:
Aurochs were under protection in Poland since late Medieval era (only Kings of Poland had right to hunt them, but they rarely did, being more interested in preservation of that species), same with wisent/European bison.

What saved wisent was the fact, that after they were excint in the wild (during ww1, Russian Civil War and Polish-Bolshevik war all wild wisents were killed by soldiers and poachers) there were enough animals in captivity to restore species-not many-current wisent population descended from 15 animals. That proves, that even large mammal could be saved with little more than dozen animals left.
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This is a good point. So long as a half dozen or so breeding pairs survive somewhere, the species could recover. This means that most could survive if a singular rich person had a few in their menagerie. So perhaps a simple PoD is to turn exotic animal collections into a bigger prestige symbol? If people view owning a live specimen of a rare species above the bust of a dead specimen, perhaps there would be less game hunting and more game preservation.
 
Citrakayah

Citrakayah

A large part of the conservation movement kicked off because of exposure to the effects of industrialization. And I'm not sure if industrialization would have taken off as easily if there'd been no colonization--Europe got a lot of wealth from the colonies. Plus European colonization would be harder to resist once industrialization had occurred.

So just butterflying colonization, say by having the Aztec kick Cortez' sorry ass and that sort of nip colonialism in the bud, won't necessarily work. You've got to butterfly colonialism while still managing to shove Europe's face in the mess it's making.

What might work to speed things up a lot would be a religiously motivated environmentalism. If God's work is perfect and complete, and Europeans realize that they can (and have) driven other species extinct, then perhaps a religious movement that treats extinction as a form of destruction of Creation could form. But Christianity has historically been incredibly anthropocentric; its very roots are arguably anti-environmental. Overturning that isn't easy; it still hasn't happened after all.

Barring that, I don't think you can accelerate things by more than a few decades, though once the environmental movement starts you could have some high profile disasters that force more environmentally friendly policy. That could easily happen fast enough to save animals like the passenger pigeon and thylacine; both animals had attempts to save them in the last years of their existence.

Side note, is it just me or is there basically no timeline that focuses on environmentalism or ecology (aside from how humans adapt to that through agriculture) as a major theme? Unfortunate gap.
 

Byzantion

Mechadogzilla said:
I'm not speaking of avoiding the extinction of prehistoric animals like the Mammoth, but rather ones that went extinct in the past few hundred years. Animals like the Quagga, Barbary Lion, Thylacine, Dodo, etc. Even if we go back to the 1627 there were still wild Aurochs in Poland (though from what I gather they were well below replacement levels for decades). Is there a way that some of these animals can be saved, if only in captivity? Perhaps an earlier conservation movement that starts in the 1800s? It's not like huge numbers are needed, the American Bison had less than 1,000 individuals at one point and has over 30,000 today.

Many of these animals would go extinct because they interfered with humans, especially European colonists. So any PoD that limits colonialism, slows it down, or creates a more ecologically 'friendly' form of colonialism could help as well.
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Californian Wolf, Mexican Grizzly, etc.. Simply overhunting I assume.
 
Sarufiyyun

Sarufiyyun

The Dodo could've survived in captivity while becoming extinct in its native Mauritius. Have an eccentric wealthy European aristocrat take a liking to the dodo and commissions an expedition to bring several dozen pairs of dodo from Mauritius. He allows them to dwell in his land and they multiply. The dodos occupying said aristocrat's lands become an exotic curiosity by the locals and he soon charges a nominal fee for admission, provided that visitors do nothing to harm his animal companions. Give or take a few generations of this aristocrat's descendants maintaining this tradition and the dodo will last long enough to become a regular sight in European and North American zoos. There are even a few who escape and establish a presence in several areas, especially the American South.

The above sounds kind of far-fetched but that's how the Pere David's deer avoided extinction.
 

Mechadogzilla

Citrakayah said:
A large part of the conservation movement kicked off because of exposure to the effects of industrialization. And I'm not sure if industrialization would have taken off as easily if there'd been no colonization--Europe got a lot of wealth from the colonies. Plus European colonization would be harder to resist once industrialization had occurred.

So just butterflying colonization, say by having the Aztec kick Cortez' sorry ass and that sort of nip colonialism in the bud, won't necessarily work. You've got to butterfly colonialism while still managing to shove Europe's face in the mess it's making.

What might work to speed things up a lot would be a religiously motivated environmentalism. If God's work is perfect and complete, and Europeans realize that they can (and have) driven other species extinct, then perhaps a religious movement that treats extinction as a form of destruction of Creation could form. But Christianity has historically been incredibly anthropocentric; its very roots are arguably anti-environmental. Overturning that isn't easy; it still hasn't happened after all.

Barring that, I don't think you can accelerate things by more than a few decades, though once the environmental movement starts you could have some high profile disasters that force more environmentally friendly policy. That could easily happen fast enough to save animals like the passenger pigeon and thylacine; both animals had attempts to save them in the last years of their existence.

Side note, is it just me or is there basically no timeline that focuses on environmentalism or ecology (aside from how humans adapt to that through agriculture) as a major theme? Unfortunate gap.
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I agree with a lot of this. But while early colonization was highly lucrative, New Imperialism and the Scramble for Africa was (generally) more of a prestige project than anything else. I think by the 1800s it'd be hard to stop industrialization. But if you say push back the Scramble by a few decades while also bringing up modern environmentalism a few decades, you could avoid the extinction of some African species. And perhaps avoid some of the crippling decline and fragmentation of endangered ones.

And I agree it is a shame there aren't many TLs on environmentalism. (I'd say AH as a genre can sometimes over focus on war and ignore other subjects, something even I'm guilty of, but that's a bit beside the point.)
 
Mina-van-Mako

Mina-van-Mako

For the propositions that have been floated around concerning Christianity's traditional attitudes towards animals, I think having the Popes not water down to death Saint Francis of Assisi's thoughts would really help: he's the one who was the first adamant advocate of Creation's beauty for itself. If his views managed to become mainstream Catholic that would probably help Europe be pretty anchored in some sort of Preservationist mindset by the time they start invading America and Africa. If Dodos are children of God then your charitable duty extends to them after all.
 

Daylight Savings

The passenger pigeon might be another doable one. The conservation movement doesn't need to be bumped up too much as they seemed to have a notable presence in the wild as late as the late 19th century.
 

SenatorErnesto

An earlier proliferation of zoos, more well-off individuals being keen on having private menageries, and in the United States having John Muir and the preservationists win over the early conservation movement over the conservationists (who supported protection of natural resources but in a way that continued their collection for human use) would be good starts.

Likewise with many species the PODs needed for them to just barely survive is less: how can we change human nature and actions. And more: can we just get this species to have a small surviving pocket of population so when the modern era comes around, scientists and conservationists can easily save them. The examples of modern extinction prevention, while although not nearly enough to stop the rapid extinction we are seeing, is filled with countless success stories from very few animals left of the species being saved. Look to pandas, California condors, gray wolves, buffalo, bald eagles.

Candidates that could have survived are likewise plentiful: Tasmanian Tigers, Ivory Billed Woodpeckers, Passenger Pigeon, Dodos...
 

Ikny

I wonder if the Great Auk is possible to save. There were attempts in the 1800s, but they failed partly due to some collectors deciding since they were rarer they should get one before they are all gone.

Edit: Though in the case of the Great Auk, the extinction was entirely and directly human driven, so I suppose it is quite possible depending on the choices of people.
 
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BELFAST

BELFAST

Mechadogzilla said:
I'm not speaking of avoiding the extinction of prehistoric animals like the Mammoth, but rather ones that went extinct in the past few hundred years. Animals like the Quagga, Barbary Lion, Thylacine, Dodo, etc. Even if we go back to the 1627 there were still wild Aurochs in Poland (though from what I gather they were well below replacement levels for decades). Is there a way that some of these animals can be saved, if only in captivity? Perhaps an earlier conservation movement that starts in the 1800s? It's not like huge numbers are needed, the American Bison had less than 1,000 individuals at one point and has over 30,000 today.

Many of these animals would go extinct because they interfered with humans, especially European colonists. So any PoD that limits colonialism, slows it down, or creates a more ecologically 'friendly' form of colonialism could help as well.
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The species was down to just 541 animals by 1889.
en.wikipedia.org

American bison - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
The trouble with letting numbers go that low is you create a genetic bottleneck and damage the long-term viability of the species even when numbers recover.
 
BELFAST

BELFAST

Wild Aurochs were an animal that was very dangerous. Hard to see humans wanting to keep such dangerous animal even in the wild in Europe.
As for other animals that ent extinct people would need to see them as having some value to them.
Many of the animals that went extinct need a very large amount of land or sea undisturbed by humans to survive.
Passenger pigeons were seen as a pest by Americans and could become a pest again.
www.scientificamerican.com

3 Billion to Zero: What Happened to the Passenger Pigeon?

Human actions may have caused the species’s populations to grow huge as well as led to its demise
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com
 
Maeglin

Maeglin

An out of the box idea: Wank the Ancient Pythagoreans.

A vegetarian cult that believes in reincarnation (hence killing any animal is morally wrong. It might be someone you know).
 

marcinL

Jan Olbracht said:
That was still way more than number of European bisons/wisents during 1920s (only 15 were left), but now wisents thrive in Poland and Belarus and are expanding their range.
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Without the extinction in the wild, courtesy of poachers and German soldiers, they could be in much better shape, health and genetics wise
BELFAST said:
Wild Aurochs were an animal that was very dangerous. Hard to see humans wanting to keep such dangerous animal even in the wild in Europe.
As for other animals that ent extinct people would need to see them as having some value to them.
Many of the animals that went extinct need a very large amount of land or sea undisturbed by humans to survive.
Passenger pigeons were seen as a pest by Americans and could become a pest again.
www.scientificamerican.com

3 Billion to Zero: What Happened to the Passenger Pigeon?

Human actions may have caused the species’s populations to grow huge as well as led to its demise
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com
Click to expand...
Last remaining aurochs were legally protected by Masovian dukes and Polish kings, who even settled some people whose only job was to feed them and protect them from poachers
 
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