PoDs: Goldwater and Malcom X

One question I have here: Does brother Malcolm and the Nation of Islam find common ground, are they still at odds OR does Malcolm still stay within the nation.

The answers will determine in many ways where Malcolm would be politically and philosophically in the 1970s and beyond.

"Assuming Goldwater sticks to his libertarian guns and says it's nuts for ANY American to be a second-class citizen would make him popular with lots of folks outside his state. IDK if his constituents would be all that happy about it though. Anglo political dominance of Arizona depends on Hispanic folks not challenging the status quo.

I don't see AUH2O sticking to those guns, and certainly not in a 1964 or 1968 election. Remember this is a man who attempted to equate civil rights with Soviet Communism on the campaign trail, even after at least being supportive of the idea of Civil Rights in his book Conscience of a Conservative.

I could see Richard Nixon getting on board with this thought (and he was, but unfortunately he surrendered to the calculus of needing the votes, and who can blame him), but Goldwater? I don't see it.

Malcolm X surviving into the 1970's has a lot of butterflies. FWIW, the idea of self-reliance instead of depending on the Feds for welfare, legal protection, and so forth could be very interesting on how suburban white folks view Islam and blacks as a whole. (I think it would massively improve opinions of both)
Imagine a lot of Muslims burning food stamps and embracing family planning, education, and entrepreneurship instead of dependence and victimhood. Muslim neighborhoods get a rep for being neat, orderly, and prosperous and linking arms with a lot of conservative Christian and Jewish political causes and thereby becoming "good Americans".

A lot of this assumes a certain answer to the question above, assumes who who and what philosophies are running the country, and who are those people talking to and working with. Nothing exists in a vacuum to itself, especially when you are dealing with the mechanism of public policy.

"could be very interesting on how suburban white folks view Islam and blacks as a whole. (I think it would massively improve opinions of both).

Some would still regard both with distrust, because in OTL, there were projects towards self-reliance but entertwined with the concept that you have to deal with the institutionalized discriminatory structures as well. They are part of the same coin and one cannot truly grow without the other. That is often the sticking point within the color line, and it would be in this proposed timeline to, especially if Malcolm, Martin, and nationalist groups in the communities like the Black Panthers found common framework to work together towards focused goals. And that changing the institutional discrimination is essential for those goals.


Plus, IIRC, NOI was mostly blue-collar folks, while Panthers tended to be college kids with a smattering of hard-case cons and veterans as cadre so you had the rift in expectations and strategies between the groups.

Actually, both tended to be grounded with communities. The Panthers were born of the city to sell them as a nationalist version of SNCC is a little inaccurate. What the Panthers did very well (and I was a beneficiary of this) of this was to develop a political education within their cadres along side the work that needed to be done.

If nothing else...This would be a very interesting scenario to flesh out. It has me reading a lot of things I haven't read in a little while.
It has my dad interested, too.
 
My father and my uncle were Black Panthers. I was a little kid then, but I went to the free breakfast program and the afterschool programs they put together. Along way, I received a lot of the political education that shapes my beliefs to this day.

The Black Panther cell where I grew up stayed active as a cadre up to around 1981. Some of the old heads who ran it are still pitching to this day where I grew up.
 
^^That'll make for some valuable feedback -- welcome Chip :)

As to the RTL, to give a visual idea, I see, circa 1970, President Barry Goldwater taking a meeting with Malik El-Shabazz (sort of like LBJ and MLK on 3/18/66, only four years later)...
 

Warsie

Banned
My father and my uncle were Black Panthers. I was a little kid then, but I went to the free breakfast program and the afterschool programs they put together. Along way, I received a lot of the political education that shapes my beliefs to this day.

The Black Panther cell where I grew up stayed active as a cadre up to around 1981. Some of the old heads who ran it are still pitching to this day where I grew up.

AWESOME. I talked to some people, both IRL and OL who were involved with thee BPP. Too bad they didn't outreach with other internationalist groups more. (like the US communist party)
 
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If Malcolm X's conversion to mainstream Islam holds, and his approach is for peaceful self-advancement, one wonders whether or not Islam will gain greater popularity earlier in the U.S., particularly among African-Americans.
 

Warsie

Banned
If Malcolm X's conversion to mainstream Islam holds, and his approach is for peaceful self-advancement, one wonders whether or not Islam will gain greater popularity earlier in the U.S., particularly among African-Americans.

I doubt so given OTL NOI and whatnot growth relied heavily on the resentment of treatment of christian black american populations, and the sentient (not fully accurate) that black americans were forcibly christianized as they were originally 'muslim'. But it is possible so meh :p
 
I doubt so given OTL NOI and whatnot growth relied heavily on the resentment of treatment of christian black american populations, and the sentient (not fully accurate) that black americans were forcibly christianized as they were originally 'muslim'. But it is possible so meh :p

On a semi related note, I'd like to see a timeline with a sorta NOI OR post NOI 'Malcom X' - but trying to get on with native african christian churches instead, like Ethiopians (or Copts, albeit it is north african).
 

Warsie

Banned
On a semi related note, I'd like to see a timeline with a sorta NOI OR post NOI 'Malcom X' - but trying to get on with native african christian churches instead, like Ethiopians (or Copts, albeit it is north african).

That will be....interesting. I wonder how that'd work with Ethiopia-Eritrean or Ethiopian-Somali conflicts. Would be cool seeing Malcolm X possibly as an intermediary, maybe even as a UN Goodwill Ambassador :eek:
 
That will be....interesting. I wonder how that'd work with Ethiopia-Eritrean or Ethiopian-Somali conflicts. Would be cool seeing Malcolm X possibly as an intermediary, maybe even as a UN Goodwill Ambassador :eek:

Well, maybe they would play more the panifricanist edge in a similar way... But yeah, the 'homeland' would have special attention for sure.
 
I doubt hugely much - his past legacy maybe stopping it...

I doubt so given OTL NOI and whatnot growth relied heavily on the resentment of treatment of christian black american populations, and the sentient (not fully accurate) that black americans were forcibly christianized as they were originally 'muslim'. But it is possible so meh :p

Ah well, I guess so much for American Muslims being numerically on par with the country's Jews...
 
Ah well, I guess so much for American Muslims being numerically on par with the country's Jews...
I believe this is possible with a POD in the '60s.
There are 1.8 million Muslims in the US, .4 million of them are Black. There are 38.9 million Black Americans in the US. I could see X tripling the native Black Muslim population, and this would lead to increased immigration to the U.S. from the Muslim World.

1.8 + .4(2) = 2.6 million. Now add in increased immigration from the Muslim world and their children. Pro-West states throw out their poorest to the U.S., anti-West states have their immigrants treated like how Cuban Americans are treated IOTL.

Note that these are modern statistics. Personally I think X could convert more than 800,000 Muslims out of a population of 38.9 million.
 
I believe this is possible with a POD in the '60s.
There are 1.8 million Muslims in the US, .4 million of them are Black. There are 38.9 million Black Americans in the US. I could see X tripling the native Black Muslim population, and this would lead to increased immigration to the U.S. from the Muslim World.

1.8 + .4(2) = 2.6 million. Now add in increased immigration from the Muslim world and their children. Pro-West states throw out their poorest to the U.S., anti-West states have their immigrants treated like how Cuban Americans are treated IOTL.

Note that these are modern statistics. Personally I think X could convert more than 800,000 Muslims out of a population of 38.9 million.

The only way I see is,.. nasty(ier). More radical, christian right-far right racism thugged down on afro-americans, and perhaps Malcom X's words spread like fire in the ghettos... 'The white man IS evil, christianism IS evil!'
 

Warsie

Banned
The only way I see is,.. nasty(ier). More radical, christian right-far right racism thugged down on afro-americans, and perhaps Malcom X's words spread like fire in the ghettos... 'The white man IS evil, christianism IS evil!'

Also have White America fuck up their 'christianization' a lot more than OTL, from more blacks imported as slaves to more of what lead the Haitian revolution (perhaps an independent CSA that collapses from that).

So there'd be a stronger Voodoo among native black americanslikee in Haiti than OTL folk legends in the 'Black Belt'. Which removes a lot of Christian built in influence from black America. Seeing Christianity more of the oppressors beliefs than the beliefs that will lead you to salvation.....which requires a stronger national identity which black America then did not have :(
 
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