PODs for Muslim India

The combined population of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent is about 400 million which is pretty dang much, I think this is possible, perhaps the Caliphate conquers India and gets filthy rich from selling large amounts of spice to the Europeans, still to do this they would need a God tier general even if they are disunited
 
The combined population of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent is about 400 million which is pretty dang much

It is, but the population of Hindus in the Indian subcontinent is much more than double that. The question is converting the Hindus, which is, as OTL has showed time and time again, very hard.

IOTL, Hinduism reacted to the rise of Islam by centralizing around Advaita Vedanta (which was the form of Hinduism most other schools found most acceptable), and every time Hindus felt too persecuted, it has resulted in them pushing back and absorbing a few foreign concepts, with the religion of the "barbarians" (mleccha) ultimately failing to make much headway. This pushback strikes me as inevitable. Even the Caliphate didn't exactly do a very good job of converting Sindh (the only part of the subcontinent which they conquered), considering prior to Partition it was only barely majority-Muslim (and even today is the only part of Pakistan with a substantial Hindu minority) and even towards the end of the Caliphate, Sindh was likely majority-Hindu. I really don't see what a POD for this would be.
 
It is, but the population of Hindus in the Indian subcontinent is much more than double that. The question is converting the Hindus, which is, as OTL has showed time and time again, very hard.

IOTL, Hinduism reacted to the rise of Islam by centralizing around Advaita Vedanta (which was the form of Hinduism most other schools found most acceptable), and every time Hindus felt too persecuted, it has resulted in them pushing back and absorbing a few foreign concepts, with the religion of the "barbarians" (mleccha) ultimately failing to make much headway. This pushback strikes me as inevitable. Even the Caliphate didn't exactly do a very good job of converting Sindh (the only part of the subcontinent which they conquered), considering prior to Partition it was only barely majority-Muslim (and even today is the only part of Pakistan with a substantial Hindu minority) and even towards the end of the Caliphate, Sindh was likely majority-Hindu. I really don't see what a POD for this would be.

You could have Hinduism lose/not gain more ground against Buddhism and Jainism. Those two faiths have a lot weaker self-preservation/self-perpetuation system built in and less codification and appeal to the upper/government building class (being highly individual rather than society focused). This would give Muslim missionaries and conquerors more incentive to push conversion and greater relative success.
 
How about a more exclusionary Hinduism that can't adapt to other religions as easily? It's main strength through history was it's sencretism, so how about a PoD that centralizes Hinduism into several competing factions across regions with distinct ideological differences to a greater degree than OTL; make them unreconcilable. Then have Islam syncretize and absorb them slowly through the centuries until it is the slim majority. That last part would be IMMENSLY helped along if Buddhism had a resurgence and Jainism picked up strength, perhaps by empire-building for the latter.
 
You could have Hinduism lose/not gain more ground against Buddhism and Jainism. Those two faiths have a lot weaker self-preservation/self-perpetuation system built in and less codification and appeal to the upper/government building class (being highly individual rather than society focused). This would give Muslim missionaries and conquerors more incentive to push conversion and greater relative success.

I will note that Hindu Buddhism didn’t exactly exist outside the Hindu pantheon. Buddhists continued to worship Hindu gods and Shiva, in the form of “Oesho” (according to coinage using the Greek alphabet - presumably we have lost some sounds and subtleties), evolved and gained much of his iconography, such as his trident, under the Buddhist Kushan Empire. Naturally it will gain many Hindu characteristics. And, of course, if anything, Buddhism was and is more codified than Hinduism.
 
I was thinking, if the Caliphate is able to exert their authority over northern India, we could see the Umayads escape to there and create a Caliphate of India
 
It is, but the population of Hindus in the Indian subcontinent is much more than double that. The question is converting the Hindus, which is, as OTL has showed time and time again, very hard.

IOTL, Hinduism reacted to the rise of Islam by centralizing around Advaita Vedanta (which was the form of Hinduism most other schools found most acceptable), and every time Hindus felt too persecuted, it has resulted in them pushing back and absorbing a few foreign concepts, with the religion of the "barbarians" (mleccha) ultimately failing to make much headway. This pushback strikes me as inevitable. Even the Caliphate didn't exactly do a very good job of converting Sindh (the only part of the subcontinent which they conquered), considering prior to Partition it was only barely majority-Muslim (and even today is the only part of Pakistan with a substantial Hindu minority) and even towards the end of the Caliphate, Sindh was likely majority-Hindu. I really don't see what a POD for this would be.
Does not most muslims in the Indian subcontinent descend from indiginous people, who converted to Islam from Hinduism? What was the reason these people converted but the ancestors of the present day Hindus did not convert?
 

mad orc

Banned
Does not most muslims in the Indian subcontinent descend from indiginous people, who converted to Islam from Hinduism? What was the reason these people converted but the ancestors of the present day Hindus did not convert?
Poverty(Islamic converters offered money) ,Fear(At the tip of the sword ) ,Luck .
 

Kaze

Banned
Poverty(Islamic converters offered money) ,Fear(At the tip of the sword ) ,Luck .
You forgot the last one - the Caste system. Those of lower caste have little to no social mobility under Hindu religion, but under Islam it is theoretical that the son of the latrine cleaner could rise up and become a powerful person where every women wishes to marry him.
 
Does not most muslims in the Indian subcontinent descend from indiginous people, who converted to Islam from Hinduism?
The stratified Hindu social system was not firmly established in most areas that are now majority Muslim. Punjab is majority Muslim because formerly pastoral peoples with little connection to institutional Hinduism were settled there under Mughal rule, and eastern Bengal, which Eaton has studied extensively, is almost entirely Muslim because forest peoples who adopted intensive agriculture under Mughal rule adopted Islam as part and parcel of adopting a more "civilized" (for lack of a better word) lifestyle.

In India, Islam was the Religion of the Plow, the faith of agricultural development.

You forgot the last one - the Caste system. Those of lower caste have little to no social mobility under Hindu religion, but under Islam it is theoretical that the son of the latrine cleaner could rise up and become a powerful person where every women wishes to marry him.
This can't be the case because the places where Hindu caste distinctions were strongest prior to Muslim rule, like the central Gangetic Basin, have a lot less Muslims than places where Hindu institutions were weak before Muslim rule, like the forests of Bangladesh.
 

mad orc

Banned
You forgot the last one - the Caste system. Those of lower caste have little to no social mobility under Hindu religion, but under Islam it is theoretical that the son of the latrine cleaner could rise up and become a powerful person where every women wishes to marry him.
Whom are you speaking of ???
 
The stratified Hindu social system was not firmly established in most areas that are now majority Muslim. Punjab is majority Muslim because formerly pastoral peoples with little connection to institutional Hinduism were settled there under Mughal rule, and eastern Bengal, which Eaton has studied extensively, is almost entirely Muslim because forest peoples who adopted intensive agriculture under Mughal rule adopted Islam as part and parcel of adopting a more "civilized" (for lack of a better word) lifestyle.

In India, Islam was the Religion of the Plow, the faith of agricultural development.


This can't be the case because the places where Hindu caste distinctions were strongest prior to Muslim rule, like the central Gangetic Basin, have a lot less Muslims than places where Hindu institutions were weak before Muslim rule, like the forests of Bangladesh.
Here is a map from Eaton's book I recolored, needs a legend but it's easily understandable by knowing that the dark greenest color is 80-90% and white is 0-10%, the data is from the British census in 1887 I think:

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The caste, I think was the most powerful defense system that prevented the conversion of the majority of Hindus to Islam, despite the fact that Islam lorded over India for more than half a millenium. Also you may note that all countries that came under Islamic rule, in North Africa, West Asia and South East Asia got converted almost completely in much shorter periods. Under the caste system the lower castes were oppressed by the upper castes and they were attracted by Islam. But, the upper and middle castes had someone below them socially whom they could exploit and they were not attracted by any egalitarian theory. Further people's attachment to their castes was stronger than the loyalty to the religion and the state. They had a mortal fear of expulsion from one's own caste than any punishment by the state. The maximum punishment by the ruler, death, could only hurt you in this world but the religion and the caste could punish you even in your afterlife. The uppercaste Hindus generally despised Islam and also Christianity. Even in the twentifirst century, with the spread of education and information, the hold of the caste has only loosened a little. In rural India the caste still rules supreme. Thus the caste system, whatever faults it may possess, stood as a strong wall to protect Hinduism from the encroachment of Islam.
 
What PODs are there for a Muslim-majority India?

Does 51% count? I guess unpopular but a more divided India with more Muslim rulers instead of larger states like the Mughal Empire and Delhi Sultanate. Still hard but it makes things easy. And let Sufi's do the thing. Additionally, do not be too harsh on Hindu's.

Or do like European missionaries did: take care of the poor if they come to you. Tell them the best parts of the religion like nobody is superior to the other.

In early Middle Ages, Catholicism also spread among Germanic Tribes due to wives of leaders influencing their husbands. Maybe encouraging marriages with non-Muslim leaders as an option.

I think a Muslim Majority India is hard for merely 500 years of direct rule. Ideally, you may need 800 years (1000-1800) for example. With a bit of luck 40-50% could be Muslim (If you count Pakistan and Banghladesh as well).
 
You forgot the last one - the Caste system. Those of lower caste have little to no social mobility under Hindu religion, but under Islam it is theoretical that the son of the latrine cleaner could rise up and become a powerful person where every women wishes to marry him.

I could be wrong but I think the caste system and in general the rigidity of Indian society is one of the reasons why Hinduism stayed the majority. In Bangladesh Hinduism was never as deeply societally rooted as it was in Uttar Pradesh (under the British Raj United Provinces). Uttar Pradesh has a historically very rigid caste system and society and Hinduism stayed in place very strongly. One thing one must consider is that conversion did not change their societal position for the most part; you would in fact be more ostracized for converting. I don’t think caste is as big of a reason as many state, but I could be entirely wrong and if someone shows me how wrong I am I’m happy to learn. But I personally think caste is an overblown reason.
 
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