POD: Hitler is Assassinated (Nov. 8th 1939)

Sabot Cat

Banned
POINT OF DIVERGENCE (1939, November 8th)

On 8 November 1939, there was less fog over Berlin than in our timeline. This allowed Hitler to deliver his speech at the Beer Hall Putsch as scheduled because the Munich airport would still be open later. He is thus killed mid-sentence along with 23 other Nazis when a time bomb set by Georg Elser explodes at 9:20pm. On the 9th of November, Hermann Goering becomes Fuhrer as per the succession plans outlined by Hitler to the Reichstag on September 1st. [1]

EUROPE IN ALTERNATE 1940
Goering linked the assassination of Hitler to the United Kingdom after the capture of two SIS agents during the Venlo Incident on the day of his ascension. The Nazis were outraged, and many high-ranking officials called for the immediate invasion of western Europe. Goering wished to prove his loyalty to the party while demonstrating that he was an effective leader, so he yielded to their demands. Due to the butterfly effect the Mechelen Incident never occurred , and thus on January 15th 1940, the German military invaded Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Luxembourg was quickly occupied, but the terrible winter weather slowed the German offensive in Belgium and the Netherlands. However, a complete Nazi occupation of the Low Countries was achieved by February 21st, as they closed in on France and began the Battle of Britain. Meanwhile, Denmark in just two days (February 22nd-February 23rd) was taken over.

The beginning of the bombing in Britain provoked an intense debate in Parliament that resulted in Chamberlain being ousted and Winston Churchill becoming the new Prime Minister on February 29th. Churchill called for the invasion of Norway to obstruct the shipment of iron ore from Sweden (Plan R 4) while securing a base in the Atlantic away from Germany in Iceland. The Allied land invasion of Norway was thus carried out on March 9th, simultaneously with the invasion of Iceland. The Norse and Icelandic governments were initially outraged, but Britain assuaged them by promising that the occupation would end after the Nazi German threat was quelled, that domestic affairs would not be interfered with , and that compensation for any damages would be provided if Norway or Iceland were to be invaded by Germany. Under these conditions, Norway and Iceland de facto consented to their occupation.

Meanwhile, the Battle of Britain was going poorly for the Luftwaffe, who had already sustained heavy causalities in the winter invasion of the Low Countries and France. However, after the decisive Battle of France on April 17th, the Second Armistice at Compiègne was signed between Germany and France, which created the nominally independent Vichy French state in the south and designated the north and western territory to be occupied by Germany. Italy never became a belligerent because their armies weren’t prepared when Germany launched its invasions, and King Victor Emmanuel III wasn’t reassured about Germany’s ability to win the war soon after the Battle of Britain.

ASIA IN ALTERNATE 1940


In light of the Anti-Comintern Pact being nullified by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Goering was able to reconsider Germany’s tentative alliance with Japan. Goering ultimately led the Nazi government to rekindle its alliance with Nationalist China instead of Imperialist Japan, because he believed that Japan was a “Far East Italy”- untrustworthy and liable to switch sides in the middle of the war. Goering held that China would be a mighty power, and that the German friendship with it was valuable. [2] The Nazis thus provided extensive training and equipment to the infantries of the Kuomintang (KMT), which the Japanese government, especially Yosuke Matsuoka Minister of Foreign Affairs, considered to be a massive betrayal.

To avoid geopolitical isolation, Mamoru Shigemitsu (the Japanese ambassador to the UK) began to hold talks with Robert Craigie (the British ambassador to Japan) with overtures of an alliance. Craigie expressed concern about the Tientsin Incident, where a war between the two empires seemed inevitable. Shigemitsu held that Japan had a common enemy with Britain in Nazi Germany, and that they would readily support the British war effort in lieu of the United States. Craigie promised mutual support in return, as the Nationalist Chinese government was disadvantageous to the UK because it could set its own tariffs without British influence among other things, but he was still concerned that Britain would be dragged into a war with the United States if it allied with Japan. Kichisaburo Nomura, Foreign Minister of Japan, wished to avoid a war with the United States as well, and opened negotiations with them through Joseph Grew (the U.S. ambassador to Japan).

Joseph Grew believed that the U.S. Senate wouldn’t approve a treaty with Japan due to the atrocities committed in the Second Sino-Japanese War, which was the cause of the “moral embargos” passed since 1938. Nomura then petitioned his native government to ratify the Geneva Convention to assuage the American public’s fear of further war crimes and to secure the alliance. This was accomplished on the part of the Diet, and by February 11th 1940, the Second Anglo-Japanese Alliance Treaty was ratified by Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States. The Second Anglo-Japanese Alliance secured the support of the United Kingdom by Japan and Japan by the United Kingdom unless either power were engaged in a war of aggression against the United States. The immediate consequence of this alliance was the granting of many visas to Jews in occupied Nazi territory to Japan, foremost in Kobe and Shanghai.

With massive financial and military aid from the United Kingdom, Japan was able to defeat the National Revolutionary Army in the Battle of Zayoi by June 14th 1940, and from there they attacked the provisional capital of the Republic of China in the Battle of Chongqin (August 3rd 1940), and it continued onto the Battle of Changsha (September-November 1940) as well as the Battle of South Guangxi (October 29th 1940). This all cumulated in the surrender of the National Revolutionary Army and the dissolution of the KMT.

The Hundred Regimes Offensive was similarly curtailed, with the Eight Route Army and the New Fourth Army being wiped out in the fighting while communist strongholds in Shaanxi were systematically eliminated along with its military leadership (although this took years of battling against guerrillas). During this conflict the Franco-Thai War broke out in August 1940 shortly after the Nazi occupation of France between Thailand and the Vichy French colonial government of Indochina.

EUROPE IN ALTERNATE 1941
Meanwhile, Goering had allowed Rudolf Hess to join the Luftwaffe as a pilot at the latter’s behest so that Hess would be unable to undermine his leadership in the Nazi Party. As indirectly planned, Hess died during the Battle of Britain on March 2nd 1940. There was thus no attempted peace mission to Britain on his part, and therefore Stalin had no lingering doubts of an Anglo-German reconciliation to hinder his designs for an invasion. As well, Goering wished to conquer the United Kingdom before opening up the Eastern Theater, and didn’t divert any divisions there. On the 10th of June on 1941, the Soviet military seized the opportunity and launched a massive surprise attack on the Eastern front through a bombing campaign carried out by the Soviet Air Force on Eastern Prussia, Poland and Romania followed by two major Red Army deployments in the east and in the south. Simple logistical superiority was the biggest factor in the USSR’s successful opening of the Eastern Theater. [3]

The Red Army was soon making headway in eastern Poland, as Goering was facing a chilly reception by the public and his own party members. The Nazi leadership believed that Goering was an incompetent fool who had fumbled the gains of Hitler, the genius whose insight would’ve saved the day according to them. Heinrich Himmler thus had Goering secretly assassinated by Josef Dietrich from the SS-Verfügungstruppe on July 16th 1941. Himmler used forged documents of Goering’s to ascend to power, and claimed that Goering was actually a Communist that was actively subverting the war effort by engaging Germany in a ruinous total war. The German public applauded the removal of Goering , as well as Himmler’s opening of peace talks with the Soviet Union. However, Joseph Stalin was uninterested in negotiating with Himmler because he wanted to make Germany a Soviet satellite state. Thus the fighting wore on in the borders of Germany in Austria, Poland and East Prussia.

ASIA IN ALTERNATE 1941


[Above: The flag of the Chinese Empire as of December 13th 1941.]

By January 8th 1941, the Reorganized National Government of China ruled the mainland with de facto control of the western interior. Although the Second Sino-Japanese War was over, there was still problems afoot for the Japanese Empire. Mao Zedong and other Chinese Communist Party members taking refuge in the Mongolian People’s Republic, a nation decisively protected by the Soviet Union during the Battle of Khalkhin Gol against the Japanese military. Worse for the Japanese Empire was the formation of the Korean Liberation Army on the anniversary of the March 1st movement in 1941 and the increased support from the Soviet Union for the Northeast Anti-Japanese United Army to continue to wage guerrilla warfare in Manchuria. Taiwan lacked similar widespread resistance, but other independence agitators hoped it would be subsumed by one, as Comintern dispatched agents there to foster a rebellion (which never came to bear any fruit).

On May 1941, Japan mediated a treaty between Thailand and the newly liberated France’s colonial government in Indochina that resulted in the ceding of several territories from French Inodchina to the Thai government, concluding the Franco-Thai War. This coincided with the founding of the Viet Minh, an Indochinese communist independence movement targeted at the French Empire, although lacking the military element at its founding. The Korean Liberation Army had some minor victories, such as the assassination of the Governor-General Jiro Minami in August 7th, while clandestine Maoists were able to carry out an elaborate conspiracy to assassinate a few of the Reorganized Republic of China’s Yuan members, but for the most part the resistance groups had very little way of establishing communications with each other while remaining hidden. Hoping to assuage the restless public, the Greater East Asia Conference was held on September 21st to the 23rd in Tokyo, wherein the presiding heads of states of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere met to furnish a propaganda showpiece of harmonious relations between the countries.

Qing Emperor Puyi, who was sent along with Prime Minister Zhang Jinghui as representatives of the Manchukuo government, suggested that he should be restored to his throne in China. Fumimaro Konoe was partially receptive of this plan (as Japan had tried to install Kung Te-cheng, heir of the Confucius lineage, as the puppet emperor of China in 1937) [4], but he realized that there was still a large anti-Qing sentiment in China. However, Konoe was inspired by the conversation to install a descendant of the Ming Dynasty as ruler, which he believe would be received well or at least better. The Ming Dynasty Genealogical Commission was thus created to find the last living descendant of the Ming Emperors, utilizing a network of pre-existing data on the topic. In November, they found a poor orphan in Changsha named Zhu Rongji who seemed to fit the bill for lineage, but was only thirteen years old with no older siblings or immediate relatives. This was not completely unprecedented (e.g. Qing Emperor Puyi ascended the throne at two years old; Emperor Shang of the Han Dynasty was crowned before he was even one, etc.), but the age issue still frustrated the Japanese officials who wanted to project the image of an independent Chinese government.

Nonetheless, on November 24th 1941 the legislatures of the Reorganized Republic of China and Manchukuo met to adopt the Constitution of the Empire of China, modeled off of the Meiji constitution. Then, in a meticulously crafted ceremony held in the Forbidden City, Zhu Rongji ascended the long vacant Ming Dynastic throne of China, with the state-controlled media reporting an end to the Qing’s legacy in Chinese government, who were blamed for China’s troubles in the previous centuries along with “anarchy” (republicanism). Beijing was also made the new capital by the constitution, with a historical flag of the Ming Dynasty flown in Chinese governmental buildings by December 13th 1941.

Emperor Zhu Rongji’s age was deliberately misreported as “sixteen” by the Japanese controlled media. However, this didn’t become a very strong point of contention because Emperor Zhu Rongji’s simple yet sincere speeches about living in poverty before being found as the last Ming descendant were well received by the Chinese public, and helped to foster a sense of legitimacy and respectability not present for the preceding heads of state. To complicate the on-going assassination of collaborationist officials by the resistance movement, murdering a “sixteen” year old child who represented the last of the Ming Dynasty was something that even the CCP didn’t think would go over well.

The privy council (and functional national Diet) of the Emperor Zhu Rongji was the Grand Council, whose ten members were appointed based on test scores from imperial examinations, which any citizen in the Chinese Empire could take. Of course, the exam guidelines were prepared by Japanese officials in Beijing from the Imperial Examination Bureau, and scores were determined by their degree of adherence to a political philosophy favorable to the Japanese government, but the sense of political liberation was still present for the Chinese people. Indeed, the Grand Council was the real locus of power in the Chinese Empire, because any proposed imperial decrees had to be passed with the consent of a majority of the Grand Council.

The first major actions of the Chinese Emperor Zhu Rongji was the formation of the Imperial Chinese Armed Forces, formed from collaborationist armed groups throughout China and divided into an Imperial Chinese Army and an Imperial Chinese Navy. On January 27th 1942, Emperor Zhu Rongji led a march of 125,000 Chinese military officers through the streets of Beijing to demonstrate the solidity and independence of the Chinese Empire. This was further cemented when the Treaty of the Grand Canal, between the ten Grand Councilors, the Prime Minister of Japan, and the Prime Minister of Manchukuo, formally ended the Second Sino-Japanese War with the Japanese Empire ceding the Matsu Islands, Kinmen, etc. to the Chinese Empire.

SOURCES​
[1] Page 599 of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer
[2] Volume 13 of Tien-Fong Cheng’s memoir.
[3] Most of the Soviet Union's strategy and outcomes are based on the thesis of "Stalin's Missed Chance" by Mikhail Meltyukhov.
[4] http://books.google.com/books?id=O...ok_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA

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I hope you all enjoy the beginning of my first alternate history timeline, and I'm looking forward to any feedback. I wasn't sure if these images were considered 'large' enough to bog down servers, and I'll happily edit my post to accommodate to guidelines.

Thanks in advance!
 
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There was another timeline with the same POD, but it's last update was a while ago. Looking forward to seeing where this timeline goes.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
There was another timeline with the same POD, but it's last update was a while ago. Looking forward to seeing where this timeline goes.

Thanks, I hope I won't disappoint~ I plan on moving the stage farther out as the timeline grows more distant from ours (in Africa and the United States especially), kind of like Decades of Darkness.

Also, would this be the timeline: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=157875?
I'm kind of disappointed that Eurofed was banned before he could do more with it but... more timeline for me I guess!

Side note: updates will probably be a little less than weekly.
 
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Thanks, I hope I won't disappoint~ I plan on moving the stage farther out as the timeline grows more distant from ours (in Africa and the United States especially), kind of like Decades of Darkness.

Also, would this be the timeline: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=157875?
I'm kind of disappointed that Eurofed was banned before he could do more with it but... more timeline for me I guess!

Side note: updates will probably be a little less than weekly.

Here's another one:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=213412
 
I always felt like there was a good chance an early death of Hitler between the fall of Poland and the offensive against France could lead to an early peace. In late August 39 Ciano was told by the British that the problem wasn't Danzig or the Corridor but the fact that Hitler couldn't be trusted anymore. Even on Sept.3rd British diplomats were still saying there was a chance for peace if Hitler just apologized. Everyone wanted a way out.

IMO as long as the phony war lasts, this whole thing can fizzle out if Hitler dies and his successor agrees to pull out of most of Poland, could probably even keep Danzig. The stomach for real war only came after the battle for France. It would be an interesting story; but everytime I see this POD it tends to be about how Goering would fight the war. That's definitely a plausible outcome too, but eh. Maybe I should write the other facet one of these days :)

This rambling aside, I do like your story, please carry on!
 

Sabot Cat

Banned

Wow, that's a pretty meticulous timeline~ And still active to boot!

I always felt like there was a good chance an early death of Hitler between the fall of Poland and the offensive against France could lead to an early peace. In late August 39 Ciano was told by the British that the problem wasn't Danzig or the Corridor but the fact that Hitler couldn't be trusted anymore. Even on Sept.3rd British diplomats were still saying there was a chance for peace if Hitler just apologized. Everyone wanted a way out.

IMO as long as the phony war lasts, this whole thing can fizzle out if Hitler dies and his successor agrees to pull out of most of Poland, could probably even keep Danzig. The stomach for real war only came after the battle for France. It would be an interesting story; but everytime I see this POD it tends to be about how Goering would fight the war. That's definitely a plausible outcome too, but eh. Maybe I should write the other facet one of these days :)

That would be interesting, but I'm not sure what PoD could produce a peaceful Nazi Germany after the invasion of Poland. One without the Venlo Incident, certainly. I'd be interesting in seeing that timeline regardless, maybe from you! :)

This rambling aside, I do like your story, please carry on!

Subscribed.

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the support~ I hope you all enjoy the next installments too~
 
IMO as long as the phony war lasts, this whole thing can fizzle out if Hitler dies and his successor agrees to pull out of most of Poland, could probably even keep Danzig. The stomach for real war only came after the battle for France. It would be an interesting story; but everytime I see this POD it tends to be about how Goering would fight the war. That's definitely a plausible outcome too, but eh. Maybe I should write the other facet one of these days :)

Did you (I hate self promotion, as much as the next guy but...) per chance read my timeline? It has exactly what you say in bolded part. Enjoy.

On a side note, glad to see people referring to my timeline. :) I'll write an update soon. In fact, I am writing one now, but do not expect to be able to post it before Monday. And yeha, nice timeline AMB. Subbed.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
EUROPE IN ALTERNATE 1941 (CONTINUED) TO ALTERNATE 1944


[Europe as of May 14th 1944, with template credit going to Morgan Hauser, Chris S, and others from here: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/resources/europe_wwii_map_series]

Although the initial Soviet offensive was successful, there ability to sustain an invasion of all Nazi German territory was frustrated by numerous organizational problems in their military. They lacked the majority of the rifles they needed, and most of their tanks were outdated. Furthermore, the Red Army lacked any tractors and were forced to stooping to seizing civilian's tractors or even their horses. As well, many of their officers lacked the proper training or disposition to maintain the momentum earned from the surprise attack. All of these factors contributed to the war grinding down to a stalemate for the rest of 1941 and 1942.

Little territory shifted hands during this time, and some observers noted that this seemed to resemble the situation in World War I, with both sides regularly loosing troops but neither making headway. One positive side effect was the end of the Battle of Britain in June 17th 1941 due to Himmler's ascension as Fuhrer. Churchill prepared the British military for a counterattack by fielding massive aid from the United States. Franklin Delano Roosevelt also ordered thousands of U.S. troops to replace the British troops in Iceland from August to November of 1941. With U.S. assets and troops in hand, the United Kingdom launched a surprise invasion of German-occupied northern France through Normandy on April 26th 1943.

The 77th Congress sharply criticized Roosevelt for dispatching U.S. troops in combat without a declaration of war. President pro tempore Carter Class was the most damning in his critique saying, "Roosevelt's overreach of executive authority cannot be endured. They endured it in Germany, and now look where they are. They endured it in Italy, and now look where they are. Will we allow American democracy to be slaughtered before our very eyes?"

Franklin Delano Roosevelt defended himself, saying that as commander-in-chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, he had the power to dispatch the American military abroad without a declaration of war or similar consent from Congress.

By June 29th 1943, Paris was under the control of the United Kingdom and by August, the Low Countries and Denmark had been liberated. The Nazi diversion of troops to the western front finally gave the Soviet Union the leeway necessary to press on into their borders. By May 4th 1943, Berlin was seized by the Red Army, and the Third Reich was ended.

Although Paris had been liberated, France wasn’t entirely occupied by British forces. Only the northern section saw a significant military presence, while the southern free zone (Vichy France) was left relatively untouched and unprotected by either Germany or the United Kingdom. In light of that situation, Bento Mussolini invaded the ally deprived and exhausted puppet regime of Vichy France on May 4th 1943, and just eleven days later (May 15th 1943), Vichy was captured. This was not the end of the assault however, as Mussolini led an invasion into southern Germany through Austria in an attempt to take it over, an invasion met with very little resistance (Munich was taken on May 19th) until the Italian forces met with the Red Army on May 20th. They agreed to not attack one another, as Mussolini joined the table of the Berlin Conference (which had begun on May 6th with the attendance of Churchill, Stalin, and Polish Prime Minister Władysław Eugeniusz Sikorski).

The primary point of contention at the conference were the borders of Poland. Sikorski pushed for the inclusion of the cities of Lwow and Wilno in Polish territory, while Stalin wished to incorporate those into nearby Soviet republics. Also contrary to Stalin’s wishes, Sikorski wished to form a Polish-Czechoslovak Federation while with pushing the borders of Poland westward, incorporating the Free City of Danzig and West Prussia with some minor concessions to the Soviet Union such as East Prussia. Sikorski and Stalin refused to see eye to eye on the issue, and thus a frustrated Churchill called for the borders to be drawn status quo ante bellum, in direct contrast to the uti possidetis borders being argued by all of the other heads of state present.

Churchill believed that the Berlin Conference would be a violation of the ex injuria jus non oritur principle if territory was awarded to conquering nations by the principle of uti possideti. He believed that France should be reunified and that Germany was to remain divided and dependent yet largely self-governing, while the USSR-Polish borders were to remain as they were in 1938. Mussolini was opposed to a complete French reunification, while Stalin believed that if Italy could keep their war-gained territories, so should the Soviet Union.

Eventually, it was decided that Poland would have its borders status quo ante bellum as of 1937, with no German concessions in the west or unification with Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia, along with Hungary, Austria, Romania, et. al. were to be restored as nation states. However, the USSR would remain in control of the Baltic republics, while retaining the responsibility of establishing an independent government in its portion of Germany. As well, Mussolini's demand for France's colonies were refused vehemently by almost everyone present, as the Italian Empire was similarly tasked to restore the independence of the territories they had under its control (e.g. South France and South Germany). The United Kingdom was to also restore North France, the Low Countries, Norway and Iceland to their prior conditions. Plans for the persecution of war crimes weren’t extensively discussed, but all present agreed that denazification was a priority. Berlin itself was given completely to the Soviet Union, because Churchill feared that Mussolini would want to claim a quadrant of it if it were to be divided between the liberating parties and for the simple reason that almost all of northern Germany was occupied by the Red Army. The Berlin Conference was thus adjourned on May 24th 1943.

Initially, it seemed as though everyone would adhere to their commitments because Norway and Iceland were relieved of a foreign military presence mere days after the conference. But in July, the military administration of South France was replaced by that of a client state headed by Pierre Laval, where Italian soldiers remained and enforced the laws of the Italian Empire regardless of what the South French government did. This was also the situation in South Germany and Austria, which were soon within Italy’s sphere of influence.

The independent governments of Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands were restored with little incident, in contrast to the Third Republic of Poland’s auspicious establishment on August 15th 1943, celebrated with a solemn yet jubilant military march in Warsaw led by Prime Minister Sikorski to coincide with the twenty-first anniversary of the Miracle at Vistula. Meanwhile Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia were still occupied by the Red Army, who showed no signs of leaving and helped furnish the institution of nominally independent authoritarian governments in the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence. On February 9th 1944, the “self-governing” German Socialist Republic was formed, along with the Konigsberg Oblast of East Prussia (as a part of the Russian SSFR) which constituted the westernmost holding of the Soviet Union. All of this was a flagrant violation of the USSR’s commitment to create a self-governing state in Germany (as well Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia) laid out in the Berlin Conference, and it caused the already frosty relations of the UK and the USSR to grow even colder.

In March 1944, the Constitution of the French Forth Republic (North France) was approved by a referendum among the French public, while Paul Reynaud (chairman of the Provisional French Government) became Prime Minister. Reynaud was faced with a public resentful of the presence of British soldiers, who were also posted in Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Soldiers from the United States remained in Europe as well, with most critics of Roosevelt being silenced by the relatively quick and massively successful campaign waged in western Europe. Regardless, many Europeans believed that Britain had opportunistically taken possession of these countries like Italy or the Soviet Union, and had acted as belligerently as Nazi Germany. They vilified Churchill as a warmonger, and frequently pointed to the unprovoked invasions of Norway, Iceland and northern France as evidence. This was in contrast to his favorable domestic reception which won him the office of Prime Minister by a comfortable margin on May 14th 1944, held due to the end of World War II (which had previously been the cause of the parliamentary elections to be suspended in the United Kingdom). Churchill maintained the British military presence in Europe due to the rather transparent expansionist tendencies of Italy and the Soviet Union. To him as well as many others in the United Kingdom and abroad, it seemed as though World War II wasn't over yet.
 
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If the Red Army tried to invade Nazi Germany in 1941 it would have been badly handled and it's forward forces would likely be destroyed in Poland and East Prussia. it simply was not ready for war in 1941; it's command and control was poor, tens of thousands of officers were undergoing retraining, the mechanized corps wouldn't be combat ready until 1942. It was, as Glantz calls it in his book by the same name, a Stumbling Colossus.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
If the Red Army tried to invade Nazi Germany in 1941 it would have been badly handled and it's forward forces would likely be destroyed in Poland and East Prussia. it simply was not ready for war in 1941; it's command and control was poor, tens of thousands of officers were undergoing retraining, the mechanized corps wouldn't be combat ready until 1942. It was, as Glantz calls it in his book by the same name, a Stumbling Colossus.

Ooh, thanks for your constructive criticism! (I've been eagerly awaiting one of these, oddly enough. =D)

Well the research I referred to was in direct opposition to Glantz' work, and I'm more familiar with its thesis and specifics than Glantz'. I think that Stalin being the aggressor in this war is a pivotal point. If Stalin was preparing to invade Nazi Germany, I doubt the Soviets would incur as many losses as it did in OTL, wherein Nazi Germany launched a surprise invasion.

As well, Nazi Germany is in worse shape in this timeline than OTL. Goering's invasion of western Europe may have taken as much territory, but it also incurred more causalities due to the war plans playing more along the lines of what the Allies were expecting (not to mention the poor combat conditions due to the winter storms.)

Goering had also prolonged the Battle of Britain far beyond its duration in OTL because he felt that he couldn't accept failure lest his status as Hitler's successor or commander of the Luftwaffe be contested in any way. Thus the Battle of Britain (which began in February 1940 in this timeline) was still being fought in June 1941, much to the favor of Britain, whose frequent bombing campaigns were a decisive factor in the reduction of Germany's industrial capacity. It was also the cause of Mussolini's hesitance in initiating any military operations as an ally of Germany (because OTL Mussolini only invaded France with the assurance that the war in Europe would be over soon, and he wanted to claim that he fought in order to receive a stake of the conquered territory), as well as Goering's fall within the Nazi German party (which led to Himmler becoming the last Fuhrer.)

There is also the point to consider in Norway's occupation, which meant that Germany's supply of iron ore from Sweden was completely obstructed. Sweden provided 9 million of the 22 million tons of iron that Germany received annually, and in the words of Grand Admiral Raeder, "[it's] utterly impossible to make war should the navy not be able to secure the supplies of iron-ore from Sweden".

So even if the Soviet Union may be in less than perfect shape to invade Germany territories, Germany was also faced with less than desirable circumstances in this timeline to fend off an invasion.
 
Ooh, thanks for your constructive criticism! (I've been eagerly awaiting one of these, oddly enough. =D)

Well the research I referred to was in direct opposition to Glantz' work, and I'm more familiar with its thesis and specifics than Glantz'. I think that Stalin being the aggressor in this war is a pivotal point. If Stalin was preparing to invade Nazi Germany, I doubt the Soviets would incur as many losses as it did in OTL, wherein Nazi Germany launched a surprise invasion.

As well, Nazi Germany is in worse shape in this timeline than OTL. Goering's invasion of western Europe may have taken as much territory, but it also incurred more causalities due to the war plans playing more along the lines of what the Allies were expecting (not to mention the poor combat conditions due to the winter storms.)

Goering had also prolonged the Battle of Britain far beyond its duration in OTL because he felt that he couldn't accept failure lest his status as Hitler's successor or commander of the Luftwaffe be contested in any way. Thus the Battle of Britain (which began in February 1940 in this timeline) was still being fought in June 1941, much to the favor of Britain, whose frequent bombing campaigns were a decisive factor in the reduction of Germany's industrial capacity. It was also the cause of Mussolini's hesitance in initiating any military operations as an ally of Germany (because OTL Mussolini only invaded France with the assurance that the war in Europe would be over soon, and he wanted to claim that he fought in order to receive a stake of the conquered territory), as well as Goering's fall within the Nazi German party (which led to Himmler becoming the last Fuhrer.)

There is also the point to consider in Norway's occupation, which meant that Germany's supply of iron ore from Sweden was completely obstructed. Sweden provided 9 million of the 22 million tons of iron that Germany received annually, and in the words of Grand Admiral Raeder, "[it's] utterly impossible to make war should the navy not be able to secure the supplies of iron-ore from Sweden".

So even if the Soviet Union may be in less than perfect shape to invade Germany territories, Germany was also faced with less than desirable circumstances in this timeline to fend off an invasion.

Those are good points, but the simple fact is that the Red army was unprepared to properly exploit them. It lacked the radios, command and control, organization, etc in order to launch a proper deep offensive. It's mechanized corps lacked support personnel and were incredibly unwieldy. Your timeline makes Nazi Germany weaker, but it does not make the Red Army stronger than it was IOTL. The Red Army had been undergoing rapid reforms, what amounted to a complete overhaul of everything from force structure to commander training. As I mentioned earlier, tens of thousands of officers were undergoing or scheduled to undergo retraining. So the Red Army simply cannot conduct a sustained deep penetration operation, leading to the inevitable failure of an invasion as it becomes rapidly overextended.

I'll throw some more facts from Glantz out in the morning, he has a mountain if statistics, but essentially the Red Army was unprepared to attack OR defend. It was in a transitionary period in 1941.
 
Thing is that Stalin already invaded Poland and was thinking about invading Finland. Britain and France already declared war.

As for Britain or France they might settle for full German retreat from Poland, but they might continue the war if they want to re-impose the Versailles terms.

Stalin? I don't think so.
 
What a wonderful story! I have one mild criticism, however. Spain was still recovering from its civil war in 1941 so I doubt they'd be engaging in any military adventures. This was one of the main reasons they remained neutral in W.W. II.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
Those are good points, but the simple fact is that the Red army was unprepared to properly exploit them. It lacked the radios, command and control, organization, etc in order to launch a proper deep offensive. It's mechanized corps lacked support personnel and were incredibly unwieldy. Your timeline makes Nazi Germany weaker, but it does not make the Red Army stronger than it was IOTL. The Red Army had been undergoing rapid reforms, what amounted to a complete overhaul of everything from force structure to commander training. As I mentioned earlier, tens of thousands of officers were undergoing or scheduled to undergo retraining. So the Red Army simply cannot conduct a sustained deep penetration operation, leading to the inevitable failure of an invasion as it becomes rapidly overextended.

I'll throw some more facts from Glantz out in the morning, he has a mountain if statistics, but essentially the Red Army was unprepared to attack OR defend. It was in a transitionary period in 1941.

Thanks for the forthcoming data! I'll adjust my timeline accordingly, as further research is suggesting they were prone to improvisation in their supplies, had an inferior set of tanks, etc. in 1941, which makes such a one-sided and short victory implausible. I believe I'll have the United Kingdom make a deal with the Soviet Union to help supply them with the appropriate instruments of war to carry out their invasion of Germany, which they'd be more willing to do in wake of the constant bombing being carried out by the Luftwaffe. But that wouldn't really solve the deeper problems of experience and organization... Hmm...

What a wonderful story! I have one mild criticism, however. Spain was still recovering from its civil war in 1941 so I doubt they'd be engaging in any military adventures. This was one of the main reasons they remained neutral in W.W. II.

First of all, thanks for saying my story is wonderful~ =)

Secondly, I'll omit Spain from the narrative. I used to think it was a matter of failed diplomacy, but upon reading why they declined to implement Operation Felix, I can see that the choice was more in the resources than the politics.
 
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Thanks for the forthcoming data! I'll adjust my timeline accordingly, as further research is suggesting they were prone to improvisation in their supplies, had an inferior set of tanks, etc. in 1941, which makes such a one-sided and short victory implausible. I believe I'll have the United Kingdom make a deal with the Soviet Union to help supply them with the appropriate instruments of war to carry out their invasion of Germany, which they'd be more willing to do in wake of the constant bombing being carried out by the Luftwaffe. But that wouldn't really solve the deeper problems of experience and organization... Hmm...

What the Red Army really needs is time, so the best thing you can go is extend the war by a couple years. So in June 1941 the Red Army launches a surprise attack, achieves some initial successes in Poland, but when it attempts to exploit further its forward forces are mauled or destroyed. The rest of 1941 and much of 1942 is a stalemate; neither side has the ability to dislodge the other. The Red Army lacks the skills, Germany lacks the resources. But during this period Germany, much economically weaker IOTL, is ground down to the point that by late 1942 it simply can't hold out. At the same time the Red Army becomes sophisticated enough that it's able to launch serious deep offensives. By summer 1943 Berlin has fallen and Nazi Germany is defeated a few months later. At the same time Britain lands in France.

Much more realistic I'd say, and it goes better with the Soviet doctrine of a war by attrition and reduction of strategic depths.
 
A few statistics on how unready the Red Army was:

Rifle Forces - Most commanders of rifle divisions were operating at 1-2 levels above what they were trained for. Inspections in spring 1941 revealed a host of deficiencies in training and experience. Rifle divisions were still in the process of mobilization, which was going slowly due to various command inefficiencies and retraining programs; in some divisions only 10% of staff and support personnel were on station. In the Baltic Military District, commanders were criticized for their "negligence and thoughtlessness" while on exercises. Due to production and distribution problems divisions lacked 65-70% of submachine guns, 85% of machine guns, 60-90% of AA guns, and 50-60% of artillery tractors. Some divisions only had 6,000 rifles out of 15,000 required. Production and distribution problems also meant that most divisions had less than a full combat load of ammunition, and no system of resupply was yet in place.

Armor - Mechanized corps only had 19% of modern heavy tanks and 11.2% of modern medium tanks, with the remainder being obsolete models. 30% of tanks required capital maintinence in order to function, and 44% more some kind of lesser repairs. Mechanized corps lacked 39% of their vehicles, 44% of artillery tractors, and 17% of motorcycles. Corps averaged only 53% of support equipment. They only had 16-50% of junior officers, none of which were fully trained or integrated. Senior officers were universally undertrained and understaffed. Some mechanized corps had less than 10% of required engineers. and only 20% of repair specialists. Logistics were nonexistant, with many corps lacking any way to resupply. Finally most corps were formed from previous headquarters whose staffs had no experience or training in commanding or controlling armored forces.

Artillery - RGK regiments had none of their required tractors, were forced to utilize horses or civilian tractors, and lacked almost all of their AT and AA support due to production shortfalls. Mortar production was still mostly focused on the light and ineffective 50mm mortar, 35,100 out of 56,900 available, which was only gradually being phased out. The Red Army's rifle divisions and other combat formations only had 37.8 of their required tractors. Artillery repair, reconstruction, and evacuation forces were still in the process of being formed and were essentially nonexistant. Artillery target acquisition was not yet up to date; out of 15 artillery correction detatchments ordered, only 3 were ready. Organic rifle and RGK regiments lacked any automobiles for supply. Finally, due to production problems, artillery TOE was only 30-70%.

And that's only a small portion of its many problems.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
The timeline has now been revised to account for the data Julian has provided me. Some side bonuses was the inclusion of the United States in this narrative, and an end of war date closer to OTL (which makes planning this timeline less of a headache). Thanks for your help Julian! =)
 
The timeline has now been revised to account for the data Julian has provided me. Some side bonuses was the inclusion of the United States in this narrative, and an end of war date closer to OTL (which makes planning this timeline less of a headache). Thanks for your help Julian! =)

No problem!
 
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