Plymouth - the city that never sleeps

I think the Dutch settlers will set themself up close to Pilgrim settlements, if the Pilgrims is subjects to Netherlands there's no reason to set up a colony far from them. Beside the Pilgrims with only around 50 settlers left could use a fresh infusion from Europe, even if they aren't the right kind of Calvinists.
It seems like freodhoric's scenario is positing an "English" Plymouth, while you're positing a "Dutch" Plymouth- both different ideas...
 
The thing is, even if you get all the Puritans to go to your colony, then what you still have is Plymouth/Massachusetts-Bay (obviously not called Massachusetts-Bay), not New Netherland- an English-speaking settlement dominated by English culture. I'm not sure this is the best base to build a lasting Dutch empire on (especially considering if the Dutch go to war with the English!), though it may give the Dutch more inspiration to build settler colonies elsewhere.

I think, though, that the Massachusetts-Bay site had been chosen separately... though proximity to Plymouth may had been a consideration, the two groups operated separately for the most part...

An interesting consequence, though, is that without Plymouth, the Natives in the region get a few more years, and also Massachusetts-Bay will probably be less inland and more spread out along the coast...

If it's just Puritans, yes, that would be a problem, BUT, if they recruit large numbers of Huegenots and German Calvinists also to settle (which is a lot like the Boers ancestors, OTL) I think you get a more "International" culture to the colonies. With Calvinists from all over northern Europe, you get something akin to OTL New York and Philadelphia (not exactly like it, those cities had large groups of other religions, but you get the point.) and perhaps with those larger populations, a better chance to defend against French and English encroachment. (Provided the Dutch maintain strong military forces of their own and well organized "Boer" militias for defense.

Probably also adviseable that the Dutch really try to establish naval parity/supperiority over their fellow colonial powers as well.

As to Massachusettes Bay, you bring up some interesting points to ponder...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It seems like freodhoric's scenario is positing an "English" Plymouth, while you're positing a "Dutch" Plymouth- both different ideas...

Yes, but I think Dutch Plymount is most likely. The effect on the colonisation of NA is going to be quite interesting, and I find it quite likely that New Netherland will survive for at the very least decades* more or even permanent.

*Which would have it only consequenses likely New York and New Jersey stay Dutch-speaking or at least speaking some Dutch creole.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
If it's just Puritans, yes, that would be a problem, BUT, if they recruit large numbers of Huegenots and German Calvinists also to settle (which is a lot like the Boers ancestors, OTL) I think you get a more "International" culture to the colonies. With Calvinists from all over northern Europe, you get something akin to OTL New York and Philadelphia (not exactly like it, those cities had large groups of other religions, but you get the point.) and perhaps with those larger populations, a better chance to defend against French and English encroachment. (Provided the Dutch maintain strong military forces of their own and well organized "Boer" militias for defense.

Probably also adviseable that the Dutch really try to establish naval parity/supperiority over their fellow colonial powers as well.

As to Massachusettes Bay, you bring up some interesting points to ponder...

A bigger population is almost unavoidable, with bigger starting population new colonist would have a bigger survival rate, while it won't compete with the sheer numbers of the Puritan presence in New England, it would be bigger than the French presence in New France.
 
A bigger population is almost unavoidable, with bigger starting population new colonist would have a bigger survival rate, while it won't compete with the sheer numbers of the Puritan presence in New England, it would be bigger than the French presence in New France.

I think The Thirty Years war could provide the Dutch with a large influx of refugees to settle the Dutch claims, provided the Dutch play it right. (Which they didn't OTL, mainly because their idea of a colony wasn't a broad settlement policy like the British and Spanish had, ie; put a lot of folks into the settlement and expand rather than the Dutch model of keeping the colonial "footprint" so to speak, rather small.)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think The Thirty Years war could provide the Dutch with a large influx of refugees to settle the Dutch claims, provided the Dutch play it right. (Which they didn't OTL, mainly because their idea of a colony wasn't a broad settlement policy like the British and Spanish had, ie; put a lot of folks into the settlement and expand rather than the Dutch model of keeping the colonial "footprint" so to speak, rather small.)

They won't play it right, at least not at first, but they will by end of 30YW get some more immigration, but it doubtfull that the area will have more than 2-3 thousand settlers in 1650. Through I doubt that the easy conquest by the British in OTL will happen here. If the Dutch keeps it until the Huguenots flees France, they likely get a rather large infusion at that time, and New Netherland may have easily have between 20-30 Thousand settlers by 1700.
 
Yes, but I think Dutch Plymount is most likely.
IMO, the English Plymouth is inevitable as the Pilgrims have commerical backers in England who will throw a major tantrum. Not only that, but their original charter is still valid, giving England a legal basis to claim Plymouth, no matter what the Pilgrims themselves do. I still think the Pilgrims will be very friendly with the Dutch, at least intially, but the Dutch will want to secure a totally non-English outlet for their fur trade, which is why i think that they will settle the Connecticut River first.

As for a culturally Dutch Plymouth, only if no English colonies are nearby. Could still be strong influences, even then.

An interesting aside, as it seems to be where this thread is heading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim_Fathers said:
Because of the continued problems within the London Company, preparations stalled. The congregation was approached by competing Dutch companies, and the possibility of settling in the Hudson River area was discussed with them.[21] These negotiations were broken off at the encouragement of another English merchant, Thomas Weston, who assured them that he could resolve the London Company delays.[22]
 
Top