Player Two Start: An SNES-CD Timeline

[Golden Darkness]

Well, I acknowledge that Sailor Moon was still alive in some fashion, but big enough for a new game in 2000? OTL had Sailor Moon console games lasting till 1997, the same year of the last anime episode airing in Japan.

Well, that's what I'll say on the matter and leave it at that.

On a different subject, something interesting just came up in the world of Pokémon, a rejected concept for the third movie: http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/movie...unknown_tower_entei_mythical_third_movie.html

It was to explore what happened to normal regular animals in the Pokémon world (early appearances of real life animals were animator mistakes, apparently) and involved a skeleton fossil of a real life T-Rex (not a Pokémon equivalent) somehow coming to life and ravaging Pallet Town and a secret Team Rocket base. It was written by Takeshi Shudo, one of the first scriptwriters for the anime.

Makes you wonder the direction the anime will take in this world.

You already said the first two season will be fully dedicated to the Kanto arc. With the lack of a break due to no Porygon incident, this arc would end at the earliest in Japan around April 1999, assuming constantly airing weekly with no breaks. That leaves around six-seven months between that and the release of Pokémon Sun and Moon in December. Will the anime take a break, or will there be some sort of filler like the Orange Islands? At least there has to be a second movie as promotion for Sun and Moon.

 

[Nivek]

Umm that was a pretty interesting trivia.... first time i heard it, nice for the details..sauce? i want to read more about it.

We've major ideas for pokemons, to avoid spoilers....will not be the same as otl, just saying that.

 

[KamuiArchetype]

Sorry guys, but that explanation just doesn't fly with me. I really think you guys are underestimating how much Japan loves their FE archetypes and Marth-related stuff. The fandom at that period just was not going to accept not having a Lord expy. Plus, speaking of FE's pre-Awakening decline, only the Marth remakes were the only ones that managed to get to the old numbers and Awakening's success was more to IS catering to just about every conservative element of the FE fandom (Marth's descendants! Future Archanea! Ye olde evil dragon vs. hero prince plot! Marriage and children!). A radically different FE with a more conservative fandom? At best you'd get "It shouldn't have been a Fire Emblem game" comments.

 

[Golden Darkness]

Umm that was a pretty interesting trivia.... first time i heard it, nice for the details..sauce? i want to read more about it.

The post had a link: http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/movie...unknown_tower_entei_mythical_third_movie.html

It's an English summary of a couple of blog posts written by Takashi Shudo. There isn't much more than the original reasoning behind the movie, why it was rejected, and how the third movie ended up being conceived. (Shudo was shown four of the upcoming 2nd Gen Pokémon, which included Entei and Unown).

 

[1965 Timelord]

Anime North Americian Distribution companies and Gundam mecha in the West

I like your TL on game consoles and I'm a Sony playstation casual gamer with PC gaming tendencies toward war sim onlining.

Have you started any butterflies on the western anime distribution companies like Central Park Media, Animeigo, etc. and the Mobile Suit Gundam series other than Gundam Wing.

If not, then with your permission can I write out specific possible changes within your timeline.

 

[President Sunflower]

I wonder why it was scrapped.

The post had a link: http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/movie...unknown_tower_entei_mythical_third_movie.html

It's an English summary of a couple of blog posts written by Takashi Shudo. There isn't much more than the original reasoning behind the movie, why it was rejected, and how the third movie ended up being conceived. (Shudo was shown four of the upcoming 2nd Gen Pokémon, which included Entei and Unown).

I wonder what would the third movie be ended up if it had the regular animals not scrapped? a Pikachu vs. Tyrannosaurus Rex fight scene would be weird idea.

 

[RySenkari]

Well, I acknowledge that Sailor Moon was still alive in some fashion, but big enough for a new game in 2000? OTL had Sailor Moon console games lasting till 1997, the same year of the last anime episode airing in Japan.

Well, that's what I'll say on the matter and leave it at that.

It's fine. I mean, I could explain it in a post later on (maybe Naoko Takeuchi, inspired by the increasing prevalence of "girl power" games, starts doing a gaiden manga in 1999?)

On a different subject, something interesting just came up in the world of Pokémon, a rejected concept for the third movie: http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/movies...ird_movie.html

It was to explore what happened to normal regular animals in the Pokémon world (early appearances of real life animals were animator mistakes, apparently) and involved a skeleton fossil of a real life T-Rex (not a Pokémon equivalent) somehow coming to life and ravaging Pallet Town and a secret Team Rocket base. It was written by Takeshi Shudo, one of the first scriptwriters for the anime.

Makes you wonder the direction the anime will take in this world.

You already said the first two season will be fully dedicated to the Kanto arc. With the lack of a break due to no Porygon incident, this arc would end at the earliest in Japan around April 1999, assuming constantly airing weekly with no breaks. That leaves around six-seven months between that and the release of Pokémon Sun and Moon in December. Will the anime take a break, or will there be some sort of filler like the Orange Islands? At least there has to be a second movie as promotion for Sun and Moon.

That is really intriguing and we'll have to give that third movie idea thought, I imagine Sony's writers might push for it. As for the anime, we do have a few months to fill, don't we? Hmmm.... maybe a 26-episode Sun and Moon "prequel" anime series perhaps? We could do another Pokemon update around December or January or so to cover it. If you have any ideas feel free to let us know!

Sorry guys, but that explanation just doesn't fly with me. I really think you guys are underestimating how much Japan loves their FE archetypes and Marth-related stuff. The fandom at that period just was not going to accept not having a Lord expy. Plus, speaking of FE's pre-Awakening decline, only the Marth remakes were the only ones that managed to get to the old numbers and Awakening's success was more to IS catering to just about every conservative element of the FE fandom (Marth's descendants! Future Archanea! Ye olde evil dragon vs. hero prince plot! Marriage and children!). A radically different FE with a more conservative fandom? At best you'd get "It shouldn't have been a Fire Emblem game" comments.

Is there any way the vastly increased successes of Tale Phantasia and Secret of Mana (both of which sold at least two million more than IOTL) may have brought in new RPG fans to the fold that might have changed the complexion of the Fire Emblem fanbase somewhat? To the point where The False Princess may have been extraordinarily controversial but still successful in Japan?

Or maybe something else could have happened in the last five years to change the makeup of the fanbase? Something we could retcon into an explanation post? I could go back and make False Princess a commercial flop in Japan. If there's no other way to reconcile it, I can just do a retcon to the post. We should have done a bit more research before going forward with this game ^_^;;;

I like your TL on game consoles and I'm a Sony playstation casual gamer with PC gaming tendencies toward war sim onlining.

Have you started any butterflies on the western anime distribution companies like Central Park Media, Animeigo, etc. and the Mobile Suit Gundam series other than Gundam Wing.

If not, then with your permission can I write out specific possible changes within your timeline.

Welcome to the timeline!

And sure, you're free to do some anime ideas if you'd like. Also, if you know a lot about PC games, we could always use some ideas on that front since this TL is so heavily console-focused (It's my fault, I'm a filthy console peasant )

 

[KamuiArchetype]

Is there any way the vastly increased successes of Tale Phantasia and Secret of Mana (both of which sold at least two million more than IOTL) may have brought in new RPG fans to the fold that might have changed the complexion of the Fire Emblem fanbase somewhat? To the point where The False Princess may have been extraordinarily controversial but still successful in Japan? Or maybe something else could have happened in the last five years to change the makeup of the fanbase?

Eh, not really. You've pretty much got a situation where the audience has certain story expectations they want met in a franchise and those expectations have been deeply embedded and passed down to the next generation of fans, no matter what else happens in the industry. Again, that's pretty much the reason why Awakening was so successful. A PoD to change that would pretty much have to occur around the release of Mystery of the Emblem at the latest.

Something we could retcon into an explanation post? I could go back and make False Princess a commercial flop in Japan. If there's no other way to reconcile it, I can just do a retcon to the post. We should have done a bit more research before going forward with this game ^_^;;;

I think the best bet for it to be a success is to take a cue from Gaiden, Sacred Stones and Radiant Dawn: promote Magris and Ralke to co-MCs of the story and give them a respectable number of chapters (or concurrent storyline) where they're the central character with their own groups and none of the other MCs are present as playable characters. Ideally the non-playable MCs in the story would only be heard of in dialogue up until the end of the current MC's chapters, where they show up as either allied units or enemies. The players should also see traits of the Marth-type Lords in Shirei as she develops and traits of Sigurd/Ike/Hector-type Lords in Ralke during the story. Magris, I'd play her as an Arvis who grows into a Sirius in terms of development. Also, it might help to have Ralke get promoted to a Lord (or whatever expy class you decide for him) status sometime in the story, a la Alm or Radiant Path, since both Shirei and Magris should already have their Lord equivalent class. This is a bit more iffy, but maybe stick an item to be the Fire Emblem for this game somewhere in the plot, even if only through backstory; the more popular games on both sides of the Pacific seems to always have that and/or dragons as major plot elements...I guess it's one of those "ah, this is an FE game" type things, like how Final Fantasies and Megaten/SMT always have their signature spell names.

 

[Nivek]

Eh, not really. You've pretty much got a situation where the audience has certain story expectations they want met in a franchise and those expectations have been deeply embedded and passed down to the next generation of fans, no matter what else happens in the industry. Again, that's pretty much the reason why Awakening was so successful. A PoD to change that would pretty much have to occur around the release of Mystery of the Emblem at the latest.

Err nope, fire emblem is not secuencial sequels(except archaeina saga, who here got even a prequel here as FE5) so like final fantasy fans would be more open and i'm judged more in gameplay element but you ironically make me remember something didn't notice and solved your own problem:

I think the best bet for it to be a success is to take a cue from Gaiden, Sacred Stones and Radiant Dawn: promote Magris and Ralke to co-MCs of the story and give them a respectable number of chapters (or concurrent storyline) where they're the central character with their own groups and none of the other MCs are present as playable characters. Ideally the non-playable MCs in the story would only be heard of in dialogue up until the end of the current MC's chapters, where they show up as either allied units or enemies. The players should also see traits of the Marth-type Lords in Shirei as she develops and traits of Sigurd/Ike/Hector-type Lords in Ralke during the story. Magris, I'd play her as an Arvis who grows into a Sirius in terms of development. Also, it might help to have Ralke get promoted to a Lord (or whatever expy class you decide for him) status sometime in the story, a la Alm or Radiant Path, since both Shirei and Magris should already have their Lord equivalent class. This is a bit more iffy, but maybe stick an item to be the Fire Emblem for this game somewhere in the plot, even if only through backstory; the more popular games on both sides of the Pacific seems to always have that and/or dragons as major plot elements...I guess it's one of those "ah, this is an FE game" type things, like how Final Fantasies and Megaten/SMT always have their signature spell names.

You know, you proposed what FE7(Blazing Sword) do and why was so heavily praised, three co lords but the story was mostly about lyn-Eliwood problems before the later arc twist(in hindsight take away dragons and story and blazing sword is so unlike fire emblem, feels a rated E game of thornes at times) and FE7 did got a minor bump over FE6(since 8 forward, the series fall slowly in sales) so maybe we're in the right way, just a more hector-ish Ralke(i should name him Paris...nah maybe another one) and you did notice the influence of Magris(Alvis witha 'dark' Sanaki) so just minor changes,heck thanks for tha tip and FE7 idea would be use better here

 

[Golden Darkness]

It's fine. I mean, I could explain it in a post later on (maybe Naoko Takeuchi, inspired by the increasing prevalence of "girl power" games, starts doing a gaiden manga in 1999?)

That would be nice.

That is really intriguing and we'll have to give that third movie idea thought, I imagine Sony's writers might push for it. As for the anime, we do have a few months to fill, don't we? Hmmm.... maybe a 26-episode Sun and Moon "prequel" anime series perhaps? We could do another Pokémon update around December or January or so to cover it. If you have any ideas feel free to let us know!

Here's how I think things would logically work regarding how the anime was developed.

As in OTL, the anime was originally developed at the beginning to last one and a half years, according to one of the animation directors. Partly this is due to it being a video game adaptation, as game adaptations to other media weren't exactly big hits at the time. The set length was for to be belief that the sequels would be out by then. Of course, two things happens, the anime was more popular then expected, and the sequels got delayed. Assuming the plot was to end at the Indigo Plateau Conference Tournament, the staff worked on how to extend the series. First with an Elite Four arc. Then the anime staff learned that the IP holders want to have an anime to debut alongside the new games. Probably around here they had to decide whether to continue Sato's adventures or pass the torch to a new protagonist, especially with Sato being a league champion. The staff probably also decided what to do in the interim between the end of the Elite Four arc and the Sun/Moon adaptation. Assuming the movies are planned yearly for the month of July as in OTL, at least the second movie will be about showing off the new Sun/Moon Pokémon. The main anime will be either limited to the 151 RGBY Pokémon, or will have a couple Sun/Moon Pokémon as well. (BTW, a possible plot for the filler arc would be that despite Giovanni disbanding Team Rocket, a rogue faction seeks to rebuild it. Tied into this plot is that after months of gathering, cataloguing, and organizing data, the Pokémon of the new region are going to be officially added to the Pokedex soon. One can fit in a time skip between the this arc and the Elite Four arc, to allow Sato and co. to physically age.)

Now, the original third movie concept was partly due to not having access to new Pokémon for the anime team to work with. So I imagine in this timeline its possible they already know where the anime series is headed and knew that the movie will be tied into the Sun/Moon series, meaning they probably planning to be focus on a Sun/Moon Pokémon for that movie as well. The real question is would the Pokémon creators defined the world as purely having Pokémon or would real life animals exist as well? If the staff wants to explore the forgotten existence of normal animals, I think a Pokémon would be tied into the plot. Either:

Ho-oh: The Pokémon that embodies rebirth. Someone wishes to use this Pokémon's powers to reanimate the normal animals that once lived aside Pokémon before disappearing. It may be hinted that some higher power had transformed normal animals into Pokémon, even Ho-oh itself.

Unown(assuming they exist): Their reality warping causes the protagonist and his Pokémon to think they in a world with normal animals and no Pokémon.

Celebi(assuming it exists): Using time travel to bring forth the extinct to the present day.

Looking at the Fire Emblem discussion, how to tie in the elements of dragons and a Fire Emblem object into the False Princess...

Shirei and Magris have draconic ancestry. Purefoy is somehow tied to a dragon that once threatened Obscura, either a reincarnation or a descendant as well. The Fire Emblem this time around is a twin set of weapons for the siblings to wield and fully harness their powers. Purefoy also seeks them to awaken his dragon-blood, but in the end becomes a mindless beast of destruction.

 

[RySenkari]

Eh, not really. You've pretty much got a situation where the audience has certain story expectations they want met in a franchise and those expectations have been deeply embedded and passed down to the next generation of fans, no matter what else happens in the industry. Again, that's pretty much the reason why Awakening was so successful. A PoD to change that would pretty much have to occur around the release of Mystery of the Emblem at the latest.

I think the best bet for it to be a success is to take a cue from Gaiden, Sacred Stones and Radiant Dawn: promote Magris and Ralke to co-MCs of the story and give them a respectable number of chapters (or concurrent storyline) where they're the central character with their own groups and none of the other MCs are present as playable characters. Ideally the non-playable MCs in the story would only be heard of in dialogue up until the end of the current MC's chapters, where they show up as either allied units or enemies. The players should also see traits of the Marth-type Lords in Shirei as she develops and traits of Sigurd/Ike/Hector-type Lords in Ralke during the story. Magris, I'd play her as an Arvis who grows into a Sirius in terms of development. Also, it might help to have Ralke get promoted to a Lord (or whatever expy class you decide for him) status sometime in the story, a la Alm or Radiant Path, since both Shirei and Magris should already have their Lord equivalent class. This is a bit more iffy, but maybe stick an item to be the Fire Emblem for this game somewhere in the plot, even if only through backstory; the more popular games on both sides of the Pacific seems to always have that and/or dragons as major plot elements...I guess it's one of those "ah, this is an FE game" type things, like how Final Fantasies and Megaten/SMT always have their signature spell names.

So would it work if instead of that opening mission at the beginning with Ralke, he has the first, say, 6-8 missions before we meet Shirei? As for Magris, I'm not sure if having her end up on her own at some point would work, unless maybe 2/3rds of the way through the game (after she's leveled up and not such a burden on the group), she gets captured by a tribe that she once tried to exterminate, only for them to gradually warm up to her as they see how much she's atoning? She could form them into her own little army unit and come to Shirei and Ralke's rescue after a few missions.

I do plan to edit the Fire Emblem entry after all this is hashed out to reflect the changes in the game.

Also, Golden Darkness' ideas about dragon ancestry work really well too, I think we might incorporate those. As for the E3 trailer, I figure it remains the same with the focus on Shirei whereas the Japanese trailer focuses on Ralke.

I like the ideas for the filler arc and the new organization (which will also play into the Sun/Moon season), we could definitely introduce them in the filler arc. Not sure whether to introduce a new filler-only group of heroes to fight them, to bring back Sato and co., or maybe to focus on some of the side characters? Maybe I could take a vote

 

[KamuiArchetype]

So would it work if instead of that opening mission at the beginning with Ralke, he has the first, say, 6-8 missions before we meet Shirei? As for Magris, I'm not sure if having her end up on her own at some point would work, unless maybe 2/3rds of the way through the game (after she's leveled up and not such a burden on the group), she gets captured by a tribe that she once tried to exterminate, only for them to gradually warm up to her as they see how much she's atoning? She could form them into her own little army unit and come to Shirei and Ralke's rescue after a few missions.

Yeah, this pretty much works. Ralke could also disappear for various reasons during Shirei's story (he can be doing other operations, maybe being eventually captured and Shirei having to rescue him to get him back as a playable unit a few missions before the fight against Magris, etc.) leaving Shirei to show her development as a leader of the rebellion. Magris, I actually was just putting her in the role of the popular (to the Japanese fans) Camus/Sirius archetype (since her development rather fits the role) in order to give another reason for the boost in sales. Your idea for her individual story actually is a good mirror variant to the original archetype's character development over three games and further sells the idea to the fanbase. It still holds to the archetype, but puts its own original touch. Now I kind of want to see her wear a mask during her rescue of Shirei and Ralke due to her shame at her past actions, only for Shirei to convince her to fight without it during the process of their reconciliation.

 

[Nivek]

I something was happy i not post my original idea(before ry extras) in serenes forrest...the discussion would still be going by now....

Interesting the mention of Camus-Sirius who at the same time was a copy another popular japanese archetype(the char clone) but Camus have reason why use the mask(ie still looks as marked man post Book 1 and to show he is helping indirectly, he is Zeke in Valencia now...unless that was retconetted again...)

Still give more Edge and allow this being the tellius equivalent(with diverse lead-lord in different side the same conflict, something i loved the tellius saga..even if RD is still a chore to play) who is the games who were inspiraton to make false princess(i wish 25th book come early, we would have use the paris name...welll....)

We will do an annex worthy for fire emblem...

 

[KamuiArchetype]

Interesting the mention of Camus-Sirius who at the same time was a copy another popular japanese archetype(the char clone) but Camus have reason why use the mask(ie still looks as marked man post Book 1 and to show he is helping indirectly, he is Zeke in Valencia now...unless that was retconetted again...)

Nah, he's still Zeke. New Mystery pretty much had more blatant references to Gaiden (pretty much cementing the Valencia saga occurs between the War of Shadow and the War of Heroes) and Sirius' end text was a bit less coy (though still nobody gets named) in indicating his relationship status with a certain someone from Gaiden. I always laugh at what might have happened since Nina abdicated and chose to find and follow Camus. The meeting between those three would be like some sort of horrible soap opera.

 

[Nivek]

Nah, he's still Zeke. New Mystery pretty much had more blatant references to Gaiden (pretty much cementing the Valencia saga occurs between the War of Shadow and the War of Heroes) and Sirius' end text was a bit less coy (though still nobody gets named) in indicating his relationship status with a certain someone from Gaiden. I always laugh at what might have happened since Nina abdicated and chose to find and follow Camus. The meeting between those three would be like some sort of horrible soap opera.

need to get a trasnlation of new mystery but nice was not retconetted.... your last tidbit remind me a friend fanfic,xd.

 

[RySenkari]

I've edited the post to reflect the changes to Fire Emblem: The False Princess. Is it worthy of strong sales in Japan now?

 

[Golden Darkness]

Interesting update to the False Princess.

Here's some things I think would be part of the story.

The draconic ancestors are in fact, the first king and queen of Obscura, with one of them representing light, the other darkness. However, they didn't get along at first, and were in fact in conflict over how the people of the future Obscura be ruled. However, the third dragon, Purefoy's ancestor, sought to manipulate the two further into conflict, in hopes they would weaken each other, or even better kill each other. The dragons of light and darkness nearly fell to the treachery of the third, but then they did something the third didn't predicted: join forces.

Due to the destruction of the war, the dragons chose to seal their forms and power into human bodies. At the same time, they knew the threat of the third dragon wasn't over, as that dragon and its heirs will seek to divide darkness and light that now protects Obscura. So they ordered that upon their deaths, their bodies will be used to forge two weapons. The Obsidian Claw and the Crystal Fang. They are referred to as the Fire Emblems as their blades are actually pure power, manifesting as black or white fire.

Down the generations, one was either born with darkness and light, or none of the powers. The sisters were in fact the first time the powers were split.

And the tribe that Magris convinces that she reformed? It turns out that a couple of them can understand the old languages better, including the instructions to seek out the Fire Emblem. The castle they find them in is in fact a tomb for the two dragons and in fact fully clarifies the story behind the prophecy.

 

[Nivek]

Interesting update to the False Princess.

Here's some things I think would be part of the story.

The draconic ancestors are in fact, the first king and queen of Obscura, with one of them representing light, the other darkness. However, they didn't get along at first, and were in fact in conflict over how the people of the future Obscura be ruled. However, the third dragon, Purefoy's ancestor, sought to manipulate the two further into conflict, in hopes they would weaken each other, or even better kill each other. The dragons of light and darkness nearly fell to the treachery of the third, but then they did something the third didn't predicted: join forces.

Due to the destruction of the war, the dragons chose to seal their forms and power into human bodies. At the same time, they knew the threat of the third dragon wasn't over, as that dragon and its heirs will seek to divide darkness and light that now protects Obscura. So they ordered that upon their deaths, their bodies will be used to forge two weapons. The Obsidian Claw and the Crystal Fang. They are referred to as the Fire Emblems as their blades are actually pure power, manifesting as black or white fire.

Down the generations, one was either born with darkness and light, or none of the powers. The sisters were in fact the first time the powers were split.

And the tribe that Magris convinces that she reformed? It turns out that a couple of them can understand the old languages better, including the instructions to seek out the Fire Emblem. The castle they find them in is in fact a tomb for the two dragons and in fact fully clarifies the story behind the prophecy.

Thanks golden darkness you got that nice idea and make sense as i inspired the Ashera and Yune story from Radiant Dawn(didn't notice the similarities of the characther with RD ones? i think kamui at least,xd)

In general how big this game moved the forum, i admit mea culpa, i got more details because holidays wasn't able to send to ry, but in general my influence was that, Radiant Dawn First two parts(who the game was pretty good but part 2 onward become a freaking chore to play) and elements of upcoming Fates....

Still Nice all of the forum

 

[KamuiArchetype]

I've edited the post to reflect the changes to Fire Emblem: The False Princess. Is it worthy of strong sales in Japan now?

Yeah, now this I could see the Japanese audience eating up. Conservative enough to meet the expectations of the fanbase and unique enough to stand on its own.

 

[RySenkari]

So Ken Griffey Jr. just made the Hall of Fame with 437 out of 440 votes.

Safe to say, he gets in unanimously ITTL.

1999 World Series will be covered in the upcoming update, BTW. A lot of stuff will be covered actually as there are a number of major games coming out. I HOPE to have it up tomorrow, but I do have a couple other things going on and it is a big update, so I might not be able to have it ready then. If it's not up tomorrow, I probably won't be able to have it up until Monday.