Plausibiliy check: Angevin NW France

in what sense? you mean 'otto would attack France at his leisure' it are you referring to diplomacy and his relations with the English?
 
in what sense? you mean 'otto would attack France at his leisure' it are you referring to diplomacy and his relations with the English?

I mean that I think Otto would have no reason to contribute much one way or another to the struggle, unless he sees an opportunity to strengthen his position at Philip's expense.

Assuming he can do something outside Aquitaine, given how much of his time and energy and money that will tie up.
 
it would certainly be interesting to see what Otto would do with aquitaine. with a distant, absentee lord the vassals would likely take their chance to engage freely on attacking one another and capturing ducal castles. would Otto pick up the struggle it let it be. he probably wouldn't push for expansion in aquitaine as its not east to expand unless you have claims to suzerainty over nearby lords, which France would be loathe to accept. France also would probably hate having a new vassals who is also a foreign king so would possibly consider aquitaine a better Target for intrigue than England. I could go on, but I could only guess at what would actually happen. hmmm...
 
it would certainly be interesting to see what Otto would do with aquitaine. with a distant, absentee lord the vassals would likely take their chance to engage freely on attacking one another and capturing ducal castles. would Otto pick up the struggle it let it be.

My original post must not have made this clear:
In this scenario, he's not Emperor (Henry VI outlives Eleanor in this scenario, and Frederick II is old enough to succeed him as intended when Henry dies, so no emperorship for Otto), so he just becomes duke of Aquitaine. So he's probably not an absentee lord.

he probably wouldn't push for expansion in aquitaine as its not east to expand unless you have claims to suzerainty over nearby lords, which France would be loathe to accept. France also would probably hate having a new vassals who is also a foreign king so would possibly consider aquitaine a better Target for intrigue than England. I could go on, but I could only guess at what would actually happen. hmmm...
Could be interesting. Philip deciding the new duke of Aquitaine is more important than the Angevins might not be very hard, given how much of the "the Angevins control waaaaay too much of France" is because of the duchy, and thus its duke becomes a target for cutting vassals down to size instead of Richard and Arthur.

Not that I can imagine Philip not taking what he can from them, because he has a grudge against Richard, but he might decide Aquitaine is more worrisome. Added to that, I imagine a foreign duke is not going to be taken well by the quarrelsome vassals in Aquitaine, which just begs for royal interference - er, intervention. :D
 
What if a deal with struck if Geoffrey was King. France gets control of the Aquitaine and England maintains control of NW France.

I do not think that England can hold onto half of France and I think Geoffrey would realize that.
 
What if a deal with struck if Geoffrey was King. France gets control of the Aquitaine and England maintains control of NW France.

I do not think that England can hold onto half of France and I think Geoffrey would realize that.

England does not control NW France. Henry II was the hereditary ruler of Anjou and Normandy, was the husband to the hereditary Duchess Eleanor of Aquitaine, and was the legal guardian of the orphaned hereditary Duchess Constance of Brittany. As a matter of fact, most baron in England had estates in Normandy, Greater Anjou, Brittany and Poitou. There were even some manors in England that were in the possession of nobles from Ile de France. So in many ways, England was possession of French noblemen.
 
England does not control NW France. Henry II was the hereditary ruler of Anjou and Normandy, was the husband to the hereditary Duchess Eleanor of Aquitaine, and was the legal guardian of the orphaned hereditary Duchess Constance of Brittany. As a matter of fact, most baron in England had estates in Normandy, Greater Anjou, Brittany and Poitou. There were even some manors in England that were in the possession of nobles from Ile de France. So in many ways, England was possession of French noblemen.

Thus, as chessfiend seems to miss, this plausibility check is about the Angevins/Plantagents holding on to their lands in France with Arthur (Constance's heir) inheriting England, Anjou and Normandy after Richard dies.

Geoffrey doesn't enter into it other than siring Arthur. Neither does John, other than being possibly used by Philip to make trouble for Richard or Arthur.

So as far as I can tell (those who disagree please say so):
Philip and Richard might (and for this to work, need to) make peace.

Normandy, Anjou, and Brittany are not inconsiderable but hardly the threat to the crown that the Angevin "empire" of the better part of France was.

Bad enough that no self-respecting French king won't keep the Angevins on the list of vassals to watch, but not necessarily to the point of attempting to drive them from France. They're not threatening to the very existence of the Capet dynasty's authority, just one of the mighty - perhaps too mighty - subjects that sooner or latter will clash with the crown over the issue of royal authority.

But that's true of other places within France so its not unique.

Philip and his views and ability are going to be an issue for the Angevins as long as he's alive. Even if he makes peace with Richard and Arthur.
 
What's the source on Otto having a claim to Aquitaine from Eleanor? Since though his mother Matilda is older than Richard wouldn't her claim be behind Richard's?
All I'm aware of is King Richard making him Earl of York in 1190 and Count of Poitou in 1196.
With him not becoming the German Roman Emperor he's likely stay Count (and possibly Earl if he didn't trade it for Poitou) and thus be an interesting vassal of Richard for Philippe to woo.

John happens to be Lord of Ireland; if he is definitely not recognised as King of England and still lives, expect him to pursue a crown from the Pope.
 
What's the source on Otto having a claim to Aquitaine from Eleanor? Since though his mother Matilda is older than Richard wouldn't her claim be behind Richard's?
All I'm aware of is King Richard making him Earl of York in 1190 and Count of Poitou in 1196.
With him not becoming the German Roman Emperor he's likely stay Count (and possibly Earl if he didn't trade it for Poitou) and thus be an interesting vassal of Richard for Philippe to woo.

John happens to be Lord of Ireland; if he is definitely not recognised as King of England and still lives, expect him to pursue a crown from the Pope.

Alison Weir's book on Eleanor of Aquitaine mentions Eleanor making (with Richard's consent) Otto her heir for Poitou and Aquitaine in the spring of 1196. So presumably its spelling it out in her will. I think I've seen it mentioned on the medieval geneology site, but don't quote me (will have to find the page on Otto) that he gave up his claim when OTL he became Emperor.

This apparently occurred after Arthur is taken by his tutor to the French court to escape Ranulf de Blundeville.

So does this mean John might attempt to make his Lordship of Ireland mean something? That could be interesting.
 
Alison Weir's book on Eleanor of Aquitaine mentions Eleanor making (with Richard's consent) Otto her heir for Poitou and Aquitaine in the spring of 1196. So presumably its spelling it out in her will. I think I've seen it mentioned on the medieval geneology site, but don't quote me (will have to find the page on Otto) that he gave up his claim when OTL he became Emperor.

This apparently occurred after Arthur is taken by his tutor to the French court to escape Ranulf de Blundeville.

So does this mean John might attempt to make his Lordship of Ireland mean something? That could be interesting.

Hmmm, interesting.
Would like to see the Will's text on that. It does explain Pitou going to Otto, but I wonder why Aquitaine is not mentioned elsewhere. Perhaps it's the Guyenne vs Aquitaine distinction? I.e. Otto could be recognised as heir to Pitou and Guyenne as a vassal to Richard who is Duke of Aquitaine (and holds Gascony and the other Aquitanian vassals)?

I definitely see John as trying to prove himself worthy of Kingship of Ireland - assuming he does not make an attempt on England. He'd likely be a regular ally of Philippe and a constant pain even if only stirring up the Welsh March Lords who own land in Ireland.
Sooner or later Richard or Arthur will have to do something about John!
 
Hmmm, interesting.
Would like to see the Will's text on that. It does explain Pitou going to Otto, but I wonder why Aquitaine is not mentioned elsewhere. Perhaps it's the Guyenne vs Aquitaine distinction? I.e. Otto could be recognised as heir to Pitou and Guyenne as a vassal to Richard who is Duke of Aquitaine (and holds Gascony and the other Aquitanian vassals)?

Possibly. The wording the book uses is Eleanor naming Otto to succeed her "in Poitou and Aquitaine." No mention of Guyenne one way or another in regards to inheritance from Eleanor.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GERMANY,%20Kings.htm#OttoIVdied1218 This site doesn't mention anything but Poitou and York.

I definitely see John as trying to prove himself worthy of Kingship of Ireland - assuming he does not make an attempt on England. He'd likely be a regular ally of Philippe and a constant pain even if only stirring up the Welsh March Lords who own land in Ireland.
Sooner or later Richard or Arthur will have to do something about John!
Yeah. John is not the kind of guy to patiently accept this...though how much Philip can do about it I'm not sure.

Philip, for all his ability, is not in a good spot.
 
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