Plausibility question: Alternate Congress of Vienna

[pompejus]

Duh. Didnt see that. Well then... hm, yes. If the Saxon King is then compensated with the Rhineland, I guess it works.


Well, the SNL could be given to another house. Like Nassau-Orange Or, other way round, NL go to Nassau-Orange again and SL to Louis. Something like that. The problem I have is as said that the NL were lucky enough to be just gifted land the size of their corelands at Vienna IOTL, and you give them even more!

Hm, looking at Valdemars map, how about Guelders remain Prussian, and Luxemburg is part of the Saxon compensation?


Thing is by that time (I think since the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss, not sure, though) there was no Nassau-orange land in Nassau anymore. The Orange line was given Fulda and some scattered lands all over Germany... Hm, I guess they could keep Fulda, though it does make better sense as part of Hesse-Kassel, connecting their mainland to the Hanau possessions...

Or of course, France does lose some land and Nassau-Orange is randomly placed in charge of Alsace or something. I mean, if France loses Nord it can also lose the Alsace. Its the Vienna Conrgess, everything is up for negotiations, so such shenigans can happen...

I believe you are wrong, The Orange-Nassau family had inherited most of the Nassau lands at this point, although I must admid it is a bit vague (as all of the HRE was), but around 1814 Orange Nassau line had all the lands of Nassau-Dillenburg, Nassau-Siegen, nassau-Beilstein, Nassau Dietz and Nassau Hademar (according to the Dutch wikipedia). i must admit I have no clue how big that is, I must admid that it could be a couple of scattered villages somewhere in germany. Anyway, we could give that and the lands I gave to Prussia in the west to the Orange Nassau line (If indeed Saxony is enough compensation for the Prussians).

I would like to keep Luxembourg Dutch as I plan to use it (together with East Frisia) in the future as point of conflict with the Germans/Prussians.

 

[Valdemar II]

Oh, wait I see now what you did in the map, Valdemar. Indeed, Fulda and some Nassau land, and "main Nassau" is compensated with some territory along the Rhine, right?

I think so, if you by "main Nassau" means the former Kings of Netherlands, they have gotten southen 2/3 of Berg and 1803 Nassau, while Wettins has gotten Nassaus territorium on the other side of the Rhine.

Do you think Nassau would become a Kingdom, it has one to two millions inhabitans.

This has turned into something of a Hessen wank.

 

[pompejus]

I think so, if you by "main Nassau" means the former Kings of Netherlands, they have gotten southen 2/3 of Berg and 1803 Nassau, while Wettons has gotten Nassaus territorium on the other side of the Rhine.

Do you think Nassau would become a Kingdom, it has one to two millions inhabitans.

This has turned into something of a Hessen wank.

Isn't a Hessen wank Susano's favourite wank besides a german wank?

 

[Valdemar II]

Oh, wait I see now what you did in the map, Valdemar. Indeed, Fulda and some Nassau land, and "main Nassau" is compensated with some territory along the Rhine, right?

I think so, if you by "main Nassau" means the former Kings of Netherlands, they have gotten southen 2/3 of Berg and 1803 Nassau, while Wettons has gotten Nassaus territorium on the other side of the Rhine.

Do you think Nassau would become a Kingdom, it has one to two millions inhabitans.

This has turned into something of a Hessen wank.

 

[Valdemar II]

Isn't a Hessen wank Susano's favourite wank besides a german wank?

I think it beats German wank for Susano.

Beside the name for the Wettin new possesion could be Kingdom of Neiderlothringen, Westrhein, Mosel, Rheinfranken, Franken or my favorite Germania.

 

[Susano]

I believe you are wrong, The Orange-Nassau family had inherited most of the Nassau lands at this point, although I must admid it is a bit vague (as all of the HRE was), but around 1814 Orange Nassau line had all the lands of Nassau-Dillenburg, Nassau-Siegen, nassau-Beilstein, Nassau Dietz and Nassau Hademar (according to the Dutch wikipedia). i must admit I have no clue how big that is, I must admid that it could be a couple of scattered villages somewhere in germany. Anyway, we could give that and the lands I gave to Prussia in the west to the Orange Nassau line (If indeed Saxony is enough compensation for the Prussians).

Looking at Wiki it appears youre partly correct. The House of Nassau is divided into the Ottonian and the Walramian branches, and they are furtehr divdied over history in ridiciously many lines. By the Napoleonic times, however, both branches had come down to one line, and what you are describing are the lands of the Ottonian branch, of which the younger line Nassau-Orange was the last surviving line. Now, I had somehow assumed the Ottonian lands had fallen to the Walram line, but in fact they fell 1806 to the napoleonic state of Berg (and some of it to the Walramian Duchy of Nassau). So, if Berg is reduced to its normal, pre-napoleonic borders Nassau-Orange can regain those lands. Still, it would be a rather poor compensation, hence my suggestion of the Alsace

I think so, if you by "main Nassau" means the former Kings of Netherlands, they have gotten southen 2/3 of Berg and 1803 Nassau, while Wettons has gotten Nassaus territorium on the other side of the Rhine.

Then I must have misintepretaed your map. What happened to the Walramian Nassau lines in your map?

Do you think Nassau would become a Kingdom, it has one to two millions inhabitans.

Unlikely. At 500k inhabitants IOTL it wasnt even considered fit to be a grand duchy.

This has turned into something of a Hessen wank.

Eh? On yoru map, as said, Hesse-Kassel doesnt even have Fulda.

 

[pompejus]

Looking at Wiki it appears youre partly correct. The House of Nassau is divided into the Ottonian and the Walramian branches, and they are furtehr divdied over history in ridiciously many lines. By the Napoleonic times, however, both branches had come down to one line, and what you are describing are the lands of the Ottonian branch, of which the younger line Nassau-Orange was the last surviving line. Now, I had somehow assumed the Ottonian lands had fallen to the Walram line, but in fact they fell 1806 to the napoleonic state of Berg (and some of it to the Walramian Duchy of Nassau). So, if Berg is reduced to its normal, pre-napoleonic borders Nassau-Orange can regain those lands. Still, it would be a rather poor compensation, hence my suggestion of the Alsace

Actually I like that ideaof the Alsace. Originally I wanted to give Lorraine and Alsace to Saxony's rulers, but I thought that rhineland would be a better idea. I thought about giving Alsace to Baden, but decided in the end against it. Giving the Alsace to Orange Nassau is a great idea, as I needed some point of conflict between Germany (German confederation/Prussia/whatever) and France and using the Orange Nassuas for it is good idea. So I'll give Willem Alsace (or should I start calling him Wilhelm, he is a German noble now).

 

[Valdemar II]

Then I must have misintepretaed your map. What happened to the Walramian Nassau lines in your map?.

The green colour (I think*)

While the blue is Hesse-Kassel and the pale violetish is Hesse-Darmstadt


*Mostly I have used the 1803 distictions in Westen Hessen

 

[Susano]

Call him William, monarch names are usually translated

I had a similar idea once btw - Louis stays in Holland, and I wanked him even more - SNL, Nord, even the Rhineland. Of course, Holland later on unites Germany Saxony remains in its old borders and permanently gains Poland, and Prussia is compensated with Westphalia, the Mecklenburgs and Denmark. The Mecklenburg rulers are compensated with Lorraine and Alsace, respectively, and Nassau-Orange gets the Franche-Comte (yeah, my old theme of the 1648 borders ). Never did much with that idea, though.

 

[Valdemar II]

Actually I like that ideaof the Alsace. Originally I wanted to give Lorraine and Alsace to Saxony's rulers, but I thought that rhineland would be a better idea. I thought about giving Alsace to Baden, but decided in the end against it. Giving the Alsace to Orange Nassau is a great idea, as I needed some point of conflict between Germany (German confederation/Prussia/whatever) and France and using the Orange Nassuas for it is good idea. So I'll give Willem Alsace (or should I start calling him Wilhelm, he is a German noble now).

Something like this?

 

[pompejus]

Call him William, monarch names are usually translated

I had a similar idea once btw - Louis stays in Holland, and I wanked him even more - SNL, Nord, even the Rhineland. Of course, Holland later on unites Germany Saxony remains in its old borders and permanently gains Poland, and Prussia is compensated with Westphalia, the Mecklenburgs and Denmark. The Mecklenburg rulers are compensated with Lorraine and Alsace, respectively, and Nassau-Orange gets the Franche-Comte (yeah, my old theme of the 1648 borders ). Never did much with that idea, though.

I don't think you'll like my plan for German unification. It is basicly Prussia trying to conquer Germany using German nationalism to its advantage. Prussia lacks the brilliance of Bismarck, so German nationalists that supported Prussia start to distrust Prussia. Bavaria still resists up to the start of the 20th century when it starts to gain its own identity. At that point I plan a war of Prussia against Bavaria, The Netherlands (for east Frisia and Luxembourg) and France (for Alsace, which it got back). Bavaria and the Netherlands are easily overrun (except the Dutch waterline) and you basicly get the first world war between France and Prussia.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Maybe i should give Ceylon back to the English, certainly as I was trading it away anyway.

Acknowledge its legal cession in 1802, you mean. If you want to keep a Bonepart, you certainly have to recognise the treaties signed by Bonepartes.

But not the capecolony. In my timeline the British only had the Cape colony for 4 years, 1806-1810.

What, did we just decide we didn't like the weather in 1810?

The better deal the Dutch get, they already have at Berlin/Vienna/London, because that is one of the ways the British bought the Dutch support against Napoleon.

So we gave you valuable colonies, tremendously valuable colonies which we had been physically in posession of for many years and which had revolted against you lot fairly recently, in exchange for a dynastic headache and military support we didn't need?

Not happening.

As cmpensation the British just keep the French colonies and I think I will include a deal with the Dutch, which include the use of the cape colony, the rights for the eastern part of the cape (region of Natal) and Dutch help for creating an English colony there.

The French colonies are not nearly as valuable, strategically speaking, as the Cape. Cape: pre-Suez key to India. Gaudeloupe: Just another bloody sugar island.

So, according to your original plan, Britain:

-Returns to the Netherlands Ceylon, which the Dutch had legally signed over.

-Returns to the Netherlands the vital Cape Colony, which Britain physically possesed.

-Swaps back Ceylon and a few worthless Indian ports for valuable and strategic bases in Malaya (before Sinagpore, there was Penang).

-Creates a complicated issue in the Germanies.

-Undermines anti-Napoleonic legitimacy.

To what advantage?

Let's face it. If Louis wants to keep his throne, he gives us stuff, not vice-versa.

 

[Valdemar II]

Susano idea make sense through, Netherland will be a lot closer to Germany in TTL, and Prussia will be a more peripher power, with little interest in uniting Germany, without the great westen territories, West Germany is full of medium powers which has a interest in cooperating economical, but is big enough to fund large enough armies to defend themself. Quite likely they turn toward Netherland because of it strategic position for trade, while Netherland need access to their coal, population and to lesser extent iron to "feed" their industrialisation, so we could see the Netherland uniting a Kleindeutschland in the northwest.

 

[pompejus]

Acknowledge its legal cession in 1802, you mean. If you want to keep a Bonepart, you certainly have to recognise the treaties signed by Bonepartes.



What, did we just decide we didn't like the weather in 1810?



So we gave you valuable colonies, tremendously valuable colonies which we had been physically in posession of for many years and which had revolted against you lot fairly recently, in exchange for a dynastic headache and military support we didn't need?

Not happening.



The French colonies are not nearly as valuable, strategically speaking, as the Cape. Cape: pre-Suez key to India. Gaudeloupe: Just another bloody sugar island.

So, according to your original plan, Britain:

-Returns to the Netherlands Ceylon, which the Dutch had legally signed over.

-Returns to the Netherlands the vital Cape Colony, which Britain physically possesed.

-Swaps back Ceylon and a few worthless Indian ports for valuable and strategic bases in Malaya (before Sinagpore, there was Penang).

-Creates a complicated issue in the Germanies.

-Undermines anti-Napoleonic legitimacy.

To what advantage?

Let's face it. If Louis wants to keep his throne, he gives us stuff, not vice-versa.

As I said this is based on the timeline I wrote, where in 1809 king Louis made a deal with the British that he would support their cause against Napoleon and they would return the Dutch colonies. So the cape colony had been Dutch again at this point for 5 years. The Dutch colonies where not something decided at this Vienna congress. I can ignore Ceylon, that is no problem.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

It is basicly Prussia trying to conquer Germany using German nationalism to its advantage..

OTL Bismarck-led Prussia did try this, ...

Prussia lacks the brilliance of Bismarck, so German nationalists that supported Prussia start to distrust Prussia.

... but German patriots did distrust them because of the Wars against Denmark and the German Confederation until 1870/1871.