Plausibility on Medieval African Kingdoms

Onyx

Banned
I dont see any acknowledgement on any kingdoms concerning that in Africa here on AH.com, but there has been past examples in history such as Zimbabwe or Ethiopia, but in the entire continent the only kingdoms that I ever noticed that emerged were until the Renaissance, that of the Mali, Songhai, Congo, etc and those of Swahili Merchant Empires.

But is there anyway to have these kingdoms reach a technological civilization with of Europe in the Medieval Ages? This is actually concerning probably my TL because I want to cover this but in an earlier time.
 
Hm? Ghana emerged by 800 AD, Mali by 1000, as did Kanem. That's well before the Renaissance. And there were kingdoms in "nubia" (Sudan) from waaay back.

Bruce
 

FDW

Banned
There's a possibility of the Sahelian state to be at technological par with Europe, though it would take much more contact through the Sahara to work.
 
Hm? Ghana emerged by 800 AD, Mali by 1000, as did Kanem. That's well before the Renaissance. And there were kingdoms in "nubia" (Sudan) from waaay back.

The Yoruba and Hausa city-states also go back at least that far - the Oyo Empire began in the 14th century, but there were smaller kingdoms well before - and there were probably pre-Renaissance kingdoms in the Great Lakes region too.
 
Hm? Ghana emerged by 800 AD, Mali by 1000, as did Kanem. That's well before the Renaissance. And there were kingdoms in "nubia" (Sudan) from waaay back.

Bruce
Ethiopia and that region had kingdoms back in Egyptian times I'm pretty sure. I heard that Ethiopian rulers got tribute from Egypt in exchange for not redirecting the Nile.
 
Spend some time on Wikipedia, at least for a start. There were plenty of medieval African kingdoms, and plenty more even older.
 

Delvestius

Banned
If you're meanings kingdoms that don't get the ass end of slavery and imperialism, your best bet is a Songhay state with greater northern contact, as said above. Ethiopia however did succeed in this endeavor.
 
But is there anyway to have these kingdoms reach a technological civilization with of Europe in the Medieval Ages? This is actually concerning probably my TL because I want to cover this but in an earlier time.

No. The Sahara desert impedes the sharing of technology, improved agricultural strains, and livestock greatly. It is always going to lag behind until means are found to circumvent that barrier.

If Ethiopia convers to Islam, it's possible that increased contact with Egypt and Mesopotamia will help them increase their technology and social institutions to their levels, which isn't bad. In the High Middle Ages (AD1000-1300), Europe and Islam is about equal, with Arabs being ahead in some areas, and behind in others (obviously Europe is more behind in year 1000 than 1300). But there isn't going to be much expansion beyond that. Ethiopia is just blessed by geography since the Red Sea will boost contact with the nearby Islamic core. For West Africa or further on down the coast, this isn't feasible.

If North Africa (say Tripoli and everything west) remains Christian, then those lands effectively becomes part of the European cultural sphere, and North Africa will be on par with Europe. At that point, the West African powers will be exposed to European ideas, institutions, and technology, but it will still lage behind as the diffusion will be slow, just like it was with Islam. The Middle Ages is too soon for any noticeable difference in West African society. However, as the years go by, more and more European ideas will be transmitted directly as West African kings and nobles send people to pilgrimage to Rome or to study at the universities in Italy or North Africa rather than send people to Cairo or Mecca. In that case, West Africa may be slightly more developed than it was IOTL, but still behind Europe. But by the time of the 18th century, you may see a greater state formation in West Africa than IOTL but Europe will be noticeably more advanced.
 
Axum (Ethiopia) minted its own coinage as far back as the 300s, was literate even longer and had diplomatic relations with Persia and Byzantium. For part of the 6th century it controlled both sides of the entrance to the Red Sea, so it would have plenty of interaction with merchant ships from other civilizations on the Indian Ocean.
 
If North Africa (say Tripoli and everything west) remains Christian, then those lands effectively becomes part of the European cultural sphere, and North Africa will be on par with Europe. At that point, the West African powers will be exposed to European ideas, institutions, and technology, but it will still lage behind as the diffusion will be slow, just like it was with Islam. The Middle Ages is too soon for any noticeable difference in West African society. However, as the years go by, more and more European ideas will be transmitted directly as West African kings and nobles send people to pilgrimage to Rome or to study at the universities in Italy or North Africa rather than send people to Cairo or Mecca. In that case, West Africa may be slightly more developed than it was IOTL, but still behind Europe. But by the time of the 18th century, you may see a greater state formation in West Africa than IOTL but Europe will be noticeably more advanced.
Interesting analysis but you're forgetting something. The arrival of the Arab Bedouins from the east in the 1000s and 1100s is what really changed North Africa. The Bedouins had little experience with farming and under their rule the great irrigation works declined badly (they been kept up by most of the previous Islamic dynasties btw). Presumably in a TL where NA is Christian these Bedouins are defeated and you have people with a greater knowledge of farming and irrigation still in charge. That will be a huge thing for agricultural production relative to OTL and all the benefits that go with a greater food supply.
 
Interesting analysis but you're forgetting something. The arrival of the Arab Bedouins from the east in the 1000s and 1100s is what really changed North Africa. The Bedouins had little experience with farming and under their rule the great irrigation works declined badly (they been kept up by most of the previous Islamic dynasties btw). Presumably in a TL where NA is Christian these Bedouins are defeated and you have people with a greater knowledge of farming and irrigation still in charge. That will be a huge thing for agricultural production relative to OTL and all the benefits that go with a greater food supply.

Removing the Fatimid Caliphate might help, if you want a Muslim West Africa.
 
Interesting analysis but you're forgetting something. The arrival of the Arab Bedouins from the east in the 1000s and 1100s is what really changed North Africa. The Bedouins had little experience with farming and under their rule the great irrigation works declined badly (they been kept up by most of the previous Islamic dynasties btw). Presumably in a TL where NA is Christian these Bedouins are defeated and you have people with a greater knowledge of farming and irrigation still in charge. That will be a huge thing for agricultural production relative to OTL and all the benefits that go with a greater food supply.

Very interesting. Given that North Africa was the bread basket of Roman times, Christian North Africa might actually not be a fringe of the European cultural sphere but a rich and important player.


Does anyone know here about Roman or Carthagian seaborne contact to the Senegal? They should have been able to do that, and the trade over the Atlantic should have been more profitable than through the Sahara. Once an important trade line were established, that should yield new statelets in Senegal profiting from trade as well, which in turn stabilizes the trade even more. If important enough, it's not very likely that these trade routes are forgotten in later times.
 
If North Africa (say Tripoli and everything west) remains Christian, then those lands effectively becomes part of the European cultural sphere, and North Africa will be on par with Europe.

This is an interesting idea, yet I'm not entirely sure of it. For one thing, is there really a singular "European cultural sphere"? The Russians always seemed to be on the fringe of it, as did the Greeks. Even more so, we have Armenia and Georgia - They were always Christian, and like North Africa, just a sea away from Europe, yet they were even less attached to what we think of as "Europe". They were influenced and pushed around by the Byzantines and Russia, who themselves were not deeply connected to the rest of Europe, but they had little if any connection to Western Europe.
 
Top