Plausibility of North and South German nation-states?

As the title says, with a POD around 1830 or higher, make a scenario where two distinctly different North and South identities emerge, and OTL German Nationalism doesn’t exist in the same form, with different unification efforts taking place in the north and south, and ideally create two separate German states, one with direct control of the North and one in the South.

The best way i could see this happening is a much more conservative Leader German State idea, with Bismarck stopping after the North German Federation was created? Idk, but I would like to see what you guys have in mind.
 
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Er, does German vs Austrian nationalism as of OTL not Count?

Because you'd be hard-pressed to have nationalisms which really idealise "North Germany" or "South Germany".

You could have Bavaria independent...
 
Ok, sure. But what would be the ramifications of say Prussia and Austria carving up the German Confederation in the wake of 1848 or an Austrian pyrrhic victory at Koniggratz, with neither side able to defeat each other they simply agree to carve up the Confederation (If Bismarck would allow that). So now we have two dubiously possible PODs that we could use. How would either POD affect the development of world affairs

I'd really like to see what some people's thoughts are on this if you guys think this is even possible. I would hope so but I'm sure there are plenty of other people on this site with a lot more knowledge of affairs at that time than I am.

Also, I don't know if this would be counted as "bumping" if so then sorry, i've only posted a couple of times on this forum and don't necessarily want to be kicked because I mostly read other TLs rather than talk or comment a lot
 
I wonder if you could increase religious tension between Catholic and Protestant Germans in someway.

That would help regions distinguish themselves more and create a better differing identity. Not sure it's doable in this era though.
 
Early enough pod and you could have a north low saxon speaking "Saxony" and a south high german speaking "Bavaria"
 
Ok, sure. But what would be the ramifications of say Prussia and Austria carving up the German Confederation in the wake of 1848 or an Austrian pyrrhic victory at Koniggratz, with neither side able to defeat each other they simply agree to carve up the Confederation


Trouble is, such an outcome is hard to arrange.

By the time it got to Koniggratz, the Prussian Army had had almost nothing to eat for two days, and if it retreated it would be doing so over ground already stripped on the way down. If beaten, or even just fought to a standstill, it is in desperate trouble, esp as Austrian cavalry (the one branch in which Austria has superiority) can waylay any foraging parties. Essentially, Koniggratz was "all or nothing" Moltke needed a total victory, as anything less would in practice be a total defeat.
 
For an early POD, have the Thirty Years War play out differently so the HRE winds up getting split between a Catholic Empire in the south and a Protestant Empire in the north. The Protestant Empire would probably initially be dominated by Sweden (depending on the exact POD), but there's plenty of ways for Sweden and Protestant Germany to part ways later on.

For a later POD, I'm not sure Bavaria's association with Prussia was inevitable, even after the Austro-Prussian War and the formation of the North German Confederation. Wikipedia at least claims that Bavaria's alliance with Prussia was driven primarily by Napoleon III talking up French territorial claims to the Bavarian Palatinate: if that's accurate, different decisions on Napoleon III's part could have lead to Bavaria remaining independent.
 
For a later POD, I'm not sure Bavaria's association with Prussia was inevitable, even after the Austro-Prussian War and the formation of the North German Confederation. Wikipedia at least claims that Bavaria's alliance with Prussia was driven primarily by Napoleon III talking up French territorial claims to the Bavarian Palatinate: if that's accurate, different decisions on Napoleon III's part could have lead to Bavaria remaining independent.


Maybe if King William sticks to his guns in 1866 and insists on recovering Ansbach and Bayreuth (as well as bits of Austria and Saxony). That could leave Bavaria sufficiently disgruntled to at least consider defecting to the French side in 1870.

Trouble is that the Bavarians still have a vivid memory of how the Prussian army swept the board four years earlier, so are not likely to risk it unless certain of a French victory - and more specifically, that the French army can get to Munich before the Prussian one does. The latter point is especially doubtful as Baden at least is certain to take Prussia's side (the Grand Duke is Wilhelm I's son-in-law, and in 1869 had even applied to join the NGC) so any French attempt to cross the Rhine will be opposed and is likely to fail. So unless the French get a big win at the very outset, King Ludwig is likely to hold his nose and take the Prussian side as OTL.

There is also the consideration that, whatever the final outcome, siding with France ensures that French and/or Prussian armies will be marching through the Palatinate - and whichever side wins, Ludwig has no guarantee of getting it back at the peace.
 
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Have Joseph II successful in his attempts to grab Bavaria and this could well happen. Biggest difficulty is north Germany/south Germany split would take on a religious dimension and Swabia is largely Protestant.
 
For an early POD, have the Thirty Years War play out differently so the HRE winds up getting split between a Catholic Empire in the south and a Protestant Empire in the north. The Protestant Empire would probably initially be dominated by Sweden (depending on the exact POD), but there's plenty of ways for Sweden and Protestant Germany to part ways later on.

I do like this idea, although not really sure about what events should occur for this to be made. My history on the Thirty Year's War isn't great, so I'd be very grateful if someone with more knowledge on the period could make such events occur. I also do think that the many possibilities from two Imperial polities would be very interesting. Would a Protestant Northern HRE (Most likely under the thumb of Swedish control) be more centralized or remain decentralized? What parts of the empire would join this Northern Polity, and how would the future be affected by this. (I do think I might try to write a TL if this is even possible.)
 
I wonder if you could increase religious tension between Catholic and Protestant Germans in someway.

That would help regions distinguish themselves more and create a better differing identity. Not sure it's doable in this era though.
Maybe If Gustav Adolph of Sweden is successful. an eius regio cuius religio should be averted.
 
Please elaborate. I believe I can recall Gustav Adolph being a successful military commander OTL, what do you mean by him being successful?
I thought of him successfully creating a Swedish Empire with Protestant German ,brother states'. Also thought 'No Westfal Peace treaty' would mean continueing religious squarrel between Catholic and Protestant states. This would mean no Age of Enlightment thus no German Nationalism in the modern sense. Religious identity stronger than ,German' identity.
 
Maybe a political crisis in the North German Federation ? Like some actual troubles with the Spanish Succession and Austria encouraging the creation of a pact between the remaining south german states and France, to avoid a total Prussian supremacy over Germany. Bavaria may accept in the name of dynastic links, Wurtemmberg hoping to shamelessly blobbin on Sigmaringen, Hessen-Darmstadt because PRUSSIA FRICKIN STOLE HALF MY TERRITORY and Baden because it would be isolated if it doesn't side with the South German-French alliance.
 
I thought of him successfully creating a Swedish Empire with Protestant German ,brother states'. Also thought 'No Westfal Peace treaty' would mean continueing religious squarrel between Catholic and Protestant states. This would mean no Age of Enlightment thus no German Nationalism in the modern sense. Religious identity stronger than ,German' identity.
Sounds interesting, but I do question: How deep would this Protestant Swedish-aligned group of states penetrate into the HRE? Pomerania could definitely be secured, but what about Brandenburg? would Hannover be close enough for Sweden to project upon it? Maybe if Sweden is able to do well enough in the thirty Year's War Saxony could maybe be pressured into joining the Swedish faction?

The loss of future German national identities could work well with the TL I want, as I think the Thirty Year's War might be a great POD to create two separate German beliefs.

Could this bloc be possibly formed out of the "Protestant Northern HRE" Maniakas had originally mentioned? Also sorry if this seems like a mash of questions, I'm not expecting you guys to answer them all, but it'd help me out if you did :p
 
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Lusitania

Donor
I am more of a east west split with Prussia being restricted to lands east and north of the Elbe River. Pod Vienna conference 1815 Rhine Prussia land go another Prussian prince and confederate of Rhine develops into independent country that unites with other west German countries to stop Prussia attempt at uniting Germany. They together with Austria able to defeat Prussia and start the process of unifying into Germany state while lands east stay under Prussia
 
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