Plausibility of colonial possession changes in a CP victorious TL

I always find it somehow amusing to read timelines with the Central Powers winning World War I and forcing the Entente to surrender their colonies to Germany and maybe some other nations. A speciality among these TLs are the Confederates siding with the Entente and the remnant USA siding with the Central Powers.

But even in OTL Germany had its Mittelafrika plans. But I somehow doubt that Germany, even in the event of sovereignly winning World War I, would ever be able to really enforce their demand of sacking British and French colonies.

Did Germany ever have a navy that is worth to be called a navy? Is a Deutsch-Mittelafrika ever practicable to be enforced? And if yes, could Germany even sack India or even Dominions?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Germany wouldn't try to go for India. Instead, it'd take most of the colonies from France, the Belgian Congo, and, if Portugal enters the war prior to German victory, Portuguese colonies.
 
I always find it somehow amusing to read timelines with the Central Powers winning World War I and forcing the Entente to surrender their colonies to Germany and maybe some other nations. A speciality among these TLs are the Confederates siding with the Entente and the remnant USA siding with the Central Powers.

But even in OTL Germany had its Mittelafrika plans. But I somehow doubt that Germany, even in the event of sovereignly winning World War I, would ever be able to really enforce their demand of sacking British and French colonies.

Did Germany ever have a navy that is worth to be called a navy? Is a Deutsch-Mittelafrika ever practicable to be enforced? And if yes, could Germany even sack India or even Dominions?

The Germans had the second biggest navy in the world pre WWI so yes they would be able to enforce this demand.
Now that said It is more likely that Germany will cut a deal with GB over the colonies and remember Germany still had an effective army in Africa in november 1918 and they only laid down the guns when ordered to by Berlin.

Germany has no chance of getting British colonies unless the ASB's make the entire RN go boom.
French, Belgium and Italian are different matters depending on when the war is won and what led to the CP victory.

India and the Dominions are out. germany doesn't have the manpower or the resources to try this.

Depending on how the CP wins and when this is what I see happening.
Germany gets her colonies back or gets paid for them by Japan.
Ottomans keep all their possessions.
Germany gets first dibbs on the French, Belgium and if they enter on the side of the entente Italian possessions.
Germany will only get her Pacific possessions back if GB helps convince japan to return them. IE if they are not returned the German HSF will be in the Pacific using British Empire bases.
This would not be a bad thing from GB's point of view as it gets the German navy half a world away from GB.
Besides any CP victory would let the Germany use their economy to destroy the Japanese one. This is not worth it over some fairly valueless islands from the early 1900's point of view.
Remember all the goodies in New Guinea and the others island haven't been found yet.
 
IMHO Germany would have to give up colonies lost to the dominions and to Japan as these would be the prerequisites to these nations signing the peace treaty

This leaves a return of Togoland and Kamerun and re-occupation of Tanganyika

Beyond this, Germany victorious can impose a colonial settlement that would give it large chunks of French Central Africa/Congo plus parts of the Belgian Congo and N Mozambique (don''t forget Portugal is a defeated Allied power as well)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I personally think that Britain and France would throw colonies at Germany in order to get Germany back to it's prewar borders in the West. Why would Britain and or France care if they lost some bits of Africa and Asia, most of which were not the greatest money spinners, if Germany was threatening to park themselves permanently in Belgium and northern France? At worst Germany would get all of it's own African colonies back. If Australia, New Zealand and Japan were recalcitrant then there is plenty of scope to give away other colonies in compensation.
 
The Germans had the second biggest navy in the world pre WWI so yes they would be able to enforce this demand.
Now that said It is more likely that Germany will cut a deal with GB over the colonies and remember Germany still had an effective army in Africa in november 1918 and they only laid down the guns when ordered to by Berlin.

Germany has no chance of getting British colonies unless the ASB's make the entire RN go boom.
French, Belgium and Italian are different matters depending on when the war is won and what led to the CP victory.

India and the Dominions are out. germany doesn't have the manpower or the resources to try this.

Depending on how the CP wins and when this is what I see happening.
Germany gets her colonies back or gets paid for them by Japan.
Ottomans keep all their possessions.
Germany gets first dibbs on the French, Belgium and if they enter on the side of the entente Italian possessions.
Germany will only get her Pacific possessions back if GB helps convince japan to return them. IE if they are not returned the German HSF will be in the Pacific using British Empire bases.
This would not be a bad thing from GB's point of view as it gets the German navy half a world away from GB.
Besides any CP victory would let the Germany use their economy to destroy the Japanese one. This is not worth it over some fairly valueless islands from the early 1900's point of view.
Remember all the goodies in New Guinea and the others island haven't been found yet.

And also that Ottomans will :
1) gain Libya back from Italy.
2) gain Cyprus and Kuwait back from the British
3) have the pro-Ottoman Khedive Abbas II restored as the Khedive of Egypt. And the British presence in Egypt would be surely effected by this.
 

Susano

Banned
Since when does it take a navy to win colonies? Okay, Great Britain is a special problem, but with France you simply force it in per the peace treaty. You dont NEED to physically occupy the coloneis during the war to claim them in the peace treaty.

Now, as said, GB is a special case, because hiding behind the Channel theyre kinda untouchable, and additionalyl could also interfere in the transferation of the French colonies. If we assume a WW1 with a neutral or CP GB, though, then the French colonies surely could get transferred without a single German soldier setting foot on them. And even with an Entente GB this could work, given a stronger submarine blockade.
 
I personally think that Britain and France would throw colonies at Germany in order to get Germany back to it's prewar borders in the West. Why would Britain and or France care if they lost some bits of Africa and Asia, most of which were not the greatest money spinners, if Germany was threatening to park themselves permanently in Belgium and northern France? At worst Germany would get all of it's own African colonies back. If Australia, New Zealand and Japan were recalcitrant then there is plenty of scope to give away other colonies in compensation.

Hmmm, I reckon you'd have a hard time forcing South Africa to give back SW Afrika, though perhaps if a complete division of Mozambique is on the cards they would take the South in compensation ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Any german aspirations overseas would need the british cooperative, as such I think it would be minimal (some French and Belgian concessions at most). I agree the Ottomans would regain what Italy snapped up and perhaps Cyprus as well.

Now Russia? We are looking at a bit of a carve-up there.

HTG
 
remember Germany still had an effective army in Africa in november 1918 and they only laid down the guns when ordered to by Berlin.

Given how many were deserting or rioting I'm not sure how accurate that was. There was some fight in the German army but a lot of people wanted the war ended at virtually any cost.

Steve
 
Any german aspirations overseas would need the british cooperative, as such I think it would be minimal (some French and Belgian concessions at most). I agree the Ottomans would regain what Italy snapped up and perhaps Cyprus as well.

Now Russia? We are looking at a bit of a carve-up there.

HTG

I think the key things are that overseas colonies would be very difficult for the Germans to hold, as they had found out, and of limited value economically or strategically. At the same time the main aims for Germany were in Europe, both the huge territorial gains they made historically in Russia and the extensive ones they desired in France. Presuming that Britain is still largely undefeated, since only a more successful U boat campaign can really do that, this will also be a big issue.

Steve
 

Thande

Donor
Since when does it take a navy to win colonies? Okay, Great Britain is a special problem, but with France you simply force it in per the peace treaty. You dont NEED to physically occupy the coloneis during the war to claim them in the peace treaty.

Now, as said, GB is a special case, because hiding behind the Channel theyre kinda untouchable, and additionalyl could also interfere in the transferation of the French colonies. If we assume a WW1 with a neutral or CP GB, though, then the French colonies surely could get transferred without a single German soldier setting foot on them. And even with an Entente GB this could work, given a stronger submarine blockade.
It depends. If the British situation isn't too desperate, Britain could try and occupy the French colonies in Africa rather than let them fall into German hands. I'm not sure if Germany could do much about that, unless they can bring Britain to the negotiating table via submarine warfare or something.
 
A lot is being missed here, the sort of thing that is ALWAYS forgotten about in AH- economics.
Very little of the point of colonies is just to have the map painted your country's colour, its to get economic benefits via them.
There is no way in hell Germany is going to own Suez or India. It would however not be unreasonable for Britain to grant the Germans rights in these areas for a time. Ditto elsewhere.
 
There is no way in hell Germany is going to own Suez or India. It would however not be unreasonable for Britain to grant the Germans rights in these areas for a time. Ditto elsewhere.

Technically Egypt was still Ottoman territory, but they are not not likely to get it any more than the Germans. Still, they could do a deal with the British, namely get Cyprus and Aden ion return for relinquishing any future claim. Naturally the Egyptians would have no say in the matter.

That leaves the Suez Canal Company which Britain and France had shares in. Here we can use the shares in the Turkish Petroleum Company as a precedent. On OTL the French were given the defeated German shares. In a CP victorious world, the Germans could demand the French shares of the Suez Canal Company as part of their booty. That would be no skin off the British nose: the Convention of Constantinople in 1888 declared the Suez Canal a neutral zone under the protection of the British
 

Susano

Banned
It depends. If the British situation isn't too desperate, Britain could try and occupy the French colonies in Africa rather than let them fall into German hands. I'm not sure if Germany could do much about that, unless they can bring Britain to the negotiating table via submarine warfare or something.

Yeah, as said, GB can interfere in the transfer of colonies. For all nations, though, what Ive written is pretty much true. Sure, the UK did try to physicyll occupy teh Germna colonie,s and suceeded, but it wasntr eally necessary...
 
Since when does it take a navy to win colonies? Okay, Great Britain is a special problem, but with France you simply force it in per the peace treaty. You dont NEED to physically occupy the coloneis during the war to claim them in the peace treaty.

Now, as said, GB is a special case, because hiding behind the Channel theyre kinda untouchable, and additionalyl could also interfere in the transferation of the French colonies. If we assume a WW1 with a neutral or CP GB, though, then the French colonies surely could get transferred without a single German soldier setting foot on them. And even with an Entente GB this could work, given a stronger submarine blockade.
I'd agree with both those points. Additionally, since Germany has won teh war, it also has the option of declaring "either you give us colonies, or you tithe 40% of your GDP to us to pay for the war. Oh, and you also agree that it was all your fault too."
 

hinotoin

Banned
Well to change the map around would be hlairous but I do think that there would be some minor changes. Turkey will prbablt get Eygpt and Libya and Austria Hungary might even get an African colony. I would think West Africa probably.
 
The Constantinople Convention did NOT put the Suez canal under the protection of the British. It was made a strictly neutral zone. The British violated this principle whenever they felt like it, of course.

I don't think the British are in a great position regarding Egypt. I's status is going to change, although I don't see it being returned to Ottoman sovereignty. Possibly Cyprus would be returned as compensation, as it's strategically useless anyway. For Egypt, probably some form of independence supervised by the Powers, with Britain and Germany predominating.

Your idea about the Canal Co. is interesting, but the problem is that French shares are mostly owned by small investors. There are some that are held by larger institutions, and it's possible that there could be an agreement whereby the French gov't buys up shares from large insitutional investors and hands them to France.

Technically Egypt was still Ottoman territory, but they are not not likely to get it any more than the Germans. Still, they could do a deal with the British, namely get Cyprus and Aden ion return for relinquishing any future claim. Naturally the Egyptians would have no say in the matter.

That leaves the Suez Canal Company which Britain and France had shares in. Here we can use the shares in the Turkish Petroleum Company as a precedent. On OTL the French were given the defeated German shares. In a CP victorious world, the Germans could demand the French shares of the Suez Canal Company as part of their booty. That would be no skin off the British nose: the Convention of Constantinople in 1888 declared the Suez Canal a neutral zone under the protection of the British
 
The Constantinople Convention did NOT put the Suez canal under the protection of the British. It was made a strictly neutral zone. The British violated this principle whenever they felt like it, of course.

I don't think the British are in a great position regarding Egypt. I's status is going to change, although I don't see it being returned to Ottoman sovereignty. Possibly Cyprus would be returned as compensation, as it's strategically useless anyway. For Egypt, probably some form of independence supervised by the Powers, with Britain and Germany predominating.

Your idea about the Canal Co. is interesting, but the problem is that French shares are mostly owned by small investors. There are some that are held by larger institutions, and it's possible that there could be an agreement whereby the French gov't buys up shares from large insitutional investors and hands them to France.


Although given that if CP won, than Abbas II would surely be restored as the Khedive of Egypt. No way Egypt would be going under Ottoman sovereignty, but at least Egypt would going to recognize Ottoman Empire's status as its suzerain for the sake of formality, and we surely can expect for a very good relationship would be conducted between the two nations.
 
Top