Hey, this is my first thread on the website but I've been lurking and reading for a long time. I think my first exposure to something I really understood as alternate history was the Domination of Draka setting by SM Stirling, and that somehow led me to this forum; specifically, to Municipal Engines' fantastic timeline A Crack at Draka. It has stuck with me for a long time, and I have read a few other Draka timelines (among many others, don't worry!). For some reason, Draka just has a particular appeal to me, and lately I have been giving it a lot of thought and considering my own take on the concept, in many ways shamefully inspired by A Crack at Draka.

With that being said, I have a sort of concept in mind that I was hoping to seek feedback on for its plausibility. Obviously, Draka is inherently implausible and I don't intend to turn the concept into a comparatively less interesting "bigger South Africa"; that would be relatively easy to achieve by having it include Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, maybe southern Mozambique, and surrounding propped up puppet states such as in Katanga, Angola, Mozambique (or what remains). All of that I feel like is, if not plausible, at least not difficult to write an alternate history about using a PoD as late as the 20th century. No, this take on the Draka I intend to make more ambitious but not quite as absurd as Stirling's. In my mind, the end point of the Draka would have them rule over all of Africa in one degree or another, and this would not be accomplished until the second half of the 20th century.

But I am getting ahead of myself. Let me introduce the PoD and the early course of this timeline as I envision it.

Point of Divergence: In reality, more of a bundle of PoDs. If you think this is overly implausible, please say so. The first is that the Dutch and the English both set up their own colonies in the Cape or in South Africa in the first half of the 17th century, instead of the Dutch taking until 1652 and the English not bothering at all (at least, not until they became the British and took the Dutch colony during the French revolutionary wars). For the English, perhaps they decide to follow up on Andrew Shilling's claim of the area and settle it in the 1620s. Most likely these colonies are initially EIC and VOC run, but similarly to IOTL with the Dutch Cape Colony, they cease to become company colonies not too long after their establishment and instead are active settler colonies in order to solidify the mother country's hold on the area and to outcompete the other colony. I imagine that over the course of the 17th century, with the Anglo-Dutch Wars, fighting between the colonies occurs but neither manages to destroy or conquer the other. English instability with the Civil War makes it hard for the colony to know who to take orders from and what to do, and the Dutch have little interest in occupying a comparatively well settled colony so far away when they are dealing with their own wars with the Portuguese and the Spanish. So the two colonies fight but don't destroy each other, and both develop with significantly more support and settlement than the OTL Dutch Cape Colony received (but still nowhere near North American colonization efforts). As an aside, the Dutch hold onto Luanda instead of losing it in 1648, and so Portuguese Angola never forms.

The next major PoD is that William and Mary still take the throne in the Glorious Revolution, however they have children when they do so and as a result the House of Orange maintains its position on the throne and Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic. This is the more unlikely of the two major PoDs in my estimation, but I find it too enticing not to have. As a result of the continuation of this quasi "personal union" between the two countries, perhaps it degenerates into simply maintaining dynastic ties, relations between the English and the Dutch stay good for the next several decades. As a result, the two colonies in South Africa collaborate more closely to deal with local issues and threats, especially natives. They both expand, taking more land that is then offered to potential colonists and settlers in Europe, and thus the population grows faster and larger than IOTL. Using Excel and the North American British colonies as a rough, if not really proper, analogue, I have the European descended population of these two South African colonies reach around 120,000 by 1750, which is several times larger than the Dutch population was at the time. This is due to the increased efforts by the Dutch, the presence of the English colony and their efforts, and these compounding in the colony and area becoming increasingly developed and attractive to settlement. Obviously it would never compete with America, but I suspect it would definitely do substantially better than IOTL.

Anyways, from there on I have some faint ideas, but in truth the plausibility of these points is important to anything that follows as IOTL South Africa simply lacked the population to be anything other than a regional power at best. My goal with these PoDs is to allow for a substantially larger white population in the area, one that would hopefully reach over 1 million by 1850 and over 5 million by 1900. Any feedback or suggestions would be highly welcome!
 
Draka TLs often include a certain degree of handwavium, so having an earlier divergence like this helps. I didn’t know the Dutch ever captured Angola, but it makes sense given their interest in Brazil, so I wonder if TTL would have a longer period of Dutch rule there as well. An Anglo-Dutch ascendancy with greater cooperation and successes between the two would tilt the balance of power in Europe, so there’s a lot to explore before even getting into the Drakian colonies.
 
Draka TLs often include a certain degree of handwavium, so having an earlier divergence like this helps. I didn’t know the Dutch ever captured Angola, but it makes sense given their interest in Brazil, so I wonder if TTL would have a longer period of Dutch rule there as well. An Anglo-Dutch ascendancy with greater cooperation and successes between the two would tilt the balance of power in Europe, so there’s a lot to explore before even getting into the Drakian colonies.
Definitely, which is something I am a bit worried about. I am doing some profound changes to get to the Draka, but that also means profound global implications that I am unsure I will be able to fully work out. Even having the Glorious Revolution happen so far after the PoD is something I feel is far from certain, especially since I've seen some discussions here on the board that the Glorious Revolution only played out the way it did because William and Mary had no heirs! So definitely a lot of research would be necessary if I seriously wanted to make this TL.
 
Definitely, which is something I am a bit worried about. I am doing some profound changes to get to the Draka, but that also means profound global implications that I am unsure I will be able to fully work out. Even having the Glorious Revolution happen so far after the PoD is something I feel is far from certain, especially since I've seen some discussions here on the board that the Glorious Revolution only played out the way it did because William and Mary had no heirs! So definitely a lot of research would be necessary if I seriously wanted to make this TL.
Maybe some kind religious angle. A Joseph Smith type rises in the Netherlands with lots of family money, starts an African colony with links to Dutch maritime trade, starts orphanages in Europe to funnel followers there. Money and religion are big initial motivations, especially a religion that is welcoming to other persecuted types, it can always morph into a Draka supremicist mindset over the years.
 
Maybe some kind religious angle. A Joseph Smith type rises in the Netherlands with lots of family money, starts an African colony with links to Dutch maritime trade, starts orphanages in Europe to funnel followers there. Money and religion are big initial motivations, especially a religion that is welcoming to other persecuted types, it can always morph into a Draka supremicist mindset over the years.
Is there much of a historical parallel for something like this happening in the 17th or 18th century? The closest I can think of is the Puritans in New England but that's not quite the same thing...
 
Is there much of a historical parallel for something like this happening in the 17th or 18th century? The closest I can think of is the Puritans in New England but that's not quite the same thing...
Maybe a shock to the system like in one of the earlier Draka fanfics, a charismatic leader loses his family to an attack from natives or other brigands, European,Arab... and he goes to the dark side and sets the template for his society.
 
Yeah for the narrative stuff and all I have some ideas but I am more interested right now in questions of plausibility from a historical and material sense. Especially regarding the feasibility of expanding the Cape Colony(ies) earlier, since the region was very inhospitable as compared to the Americas after all, and a much larger population requires expansion and more land!
 
Is there much of a historical parallel for something like this happening in the 17th or 18th century? The closest I can think of is the Puritans in New England but that's not quite the same thing...
The Calvinist Boers had their own brand of "God's Chosen People" /New Israel/religious zealotry. As far as I know, that started around the 1690s/1700s. Given that the Reformed Church split into the Dutch Reformed (predominantly in the Free State, Nederlands Hervormde (mostly in the Transvaal, although there was a schism because some were seen as being too close to the Methodists (a heresy by standard Calvinist thought IIRC)) and the Doppers (mainly in the North West Province, that was an even more conservative stance of the Nederlands Hervormde). Then the APK (Afrikaans Protestant Church made accusations of Arminianism against the Dutch Reformed Church in SA) in the 80s and split again. Honestly, it's like a cell the way it keeps dividing up.

Just goes to show the joke is true: one Dutch church minister is a theologian; two is a discussion but three is a schism
 
The Calvinist Boers had their own brand of "God's Chosen People" /New Israel/religious zealotry. As far as I know, that started around the 1690s/1700s. Given that the Reformed Church split into the Dutch Reformed (predominantly in the Free State, Nederlands Hervormde (mostly in the Transvaal, although there was a schism because some were seen as being too close to the Methodists (a heresy by standard Calvinist thought IIRC)) and the Doppers (mainly in the North West Province, that was an even more conservative stance of the Nederlands Hervormde). Then the APK (Afrikaans Protestant Church made accusations of Arminianism against the Dutch Reformed Church in SA) in the 80s and split again. Honestly, it's like a cell the way it keeps dividing up.

Just goes to show the joke is true: one Dutch church minister is a theologian; two is a discussion but three is a schism
Reading up about the history of the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa definitely made my head spin lol. I appreciate the info though! But this isn't really an example of a single charismatic leader facilitating a mass colonization effort right? It's just a colonial population attaching a sort of religious significance towards their circumstances. I was specifically asking some sort of parallel to what @Narrowback57 suggested
 
Hey, this is my first thread on the website but I've been lurking and reading for a long time. I think my first exposure to something I really understood as alternate history was the Domination of Draka setting by SM Stirling, and that somehow led me to this forum; specifically, to Municipal Engines' fantastic timeline A Crack at Draka. It has stuck with me for a long time, and I have read a few other Draka timelines (among many others, don't worry!). For some reason, Draka just has a particular appeal to me, and lately I have been giving it a lot of thought and considering my own take on the concept, in many ways shamefully inspired by A Crack at Draka.

With that being said, I have a sort of concept in mind that I was hoping to seek feedback on for its plausibility. Obviously, Draka is inherently implausible and I don't intend to turn the concept into a comparatively less interesting "bigger South Africa"; that would be relatively easy to achieve by having it include Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, maybe southern Mozambique, and surrounding propped up puppet states such as in Katanga, Angola, Mozambique (or what remains). All of that I feel like is, if not plausible, at least not difficult to write an alternate history about using a PoD as late as the 20th century. No, this take on the Draka I intend to make more ambitious but not quite as absurd as Stirling's. In my mind, the end point of the Draka would have them rule over all of Africa in one degree or another, and this would not be accomplished until the second half of the 20th century.

But I am getting ahead of myself. Let me introduce the PoD and the early course of this timeline as I envision it.

Point of Divergence: In reality, more of a bundle of PoDs. If you think this is overly implausible, please say so. The first is that the Dutch and the English both set up their own colonies in the Cape or in South Africa in the first half of the 17th century, instead of the Dutch taking until 1652 and the English not bothering at all (at least, not until they became the British and took the Dutch colony during the French revolutionary wars). For the English, perhaps they decide to follow up on Andrew Shilling's claim of the area and settle it in the 1620s. Most likely these colonies are initially EIC and VOC run, but similarly to IOTL with the Dutch Cape Colony, they cease to become company colonies not too long after their establishment and instead are active settler colonies in order to solidify the mother country's hold on the area and to outcompete the other colony. I imagine that over the course of the 17th century, with the Anglo-Dutch Wars, fighting between the colonies occurs but neither manages to destroy or conquer the other. English instability with the Civil War makes it hard for the colony to know who to take orders from and what to do, and the Dutch have little interest in occupying a comparatively well settled colony so far away when they are dealing with their own wars with the Portuguese and the Spanish. So the two colonies fight but don't destroy each other, and both develop with significantly more support and settlement than the OTL Dutch Cape Colony received (but still nowhere near North American colonization efforts). As an aside, the Dutch hold onto Luanda instead of losing it in 1648, and so Portuguese Angola never forms.

The next major PoD is that William and Mary still take the throne in the Glorious Revolution, however they have children when they do so and as a result the House of Orange maintains its position on the throne and Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic. This is the more unlikely of the two major PoDs in my estimation, but I find it too enticing not to have. As a result of the continuation of this quasi "personal union" between the two countries, perhaps it degenerates into simply maintaining dynastic ties, relations between the English and the Dutch stay good for the next several decades. As a result, the two colonies in South Africa collaborate more closely to deal with local issues and threats, especially natives. They both expand, taking more land that is then offered to potential colonists and settlers in Europe, and thus the population grows faster and larger than IOTL. Using Excel and the North American British colonies as a rough, if not really proper, analogue, I have the European descended population of these two South African colonies reach around 120,000 by 1750, which is several times larger than the Dutch population was at the time. This is due to the increased efforts by the Dutch, the presence of the English colony and their efforts, and these compounding in the colony and area becoming increasingly developed and attractive to settlement. Obviously it would never compete with America, but I suspect it would definitely do substantially better than IOTL.

Anyways, from there on I have some faint ideas, but in truth the plausibility of these points is important to anything that follows as IOTL South Africa simply lacked the population to be anything other than a regional power at best. My goal with these PoDs is to allow for a substantially larger white population in the area, one that would hopefully reach over 1 million by 1850 and over 5 million by 1900. Any feedback or suggestions would be highly welcome!


I actually have a suggestion or two on this, particularly in trying to establish a self-sustaining population of settlers in the area, my idea is based on the founding of a settlement by the Portuguese in the 16th century, which will obviously end up clashing/interacting and mix with the local Khoisan and Bantu population, then over time this region is taken and maintained by the Dutch / English as historically happens with most Portuguese colonies, this ploy would allow the population of settlers in the area to be slightly increased , long before Otl
 
I actually have a suggestion or two on this, particularly in trying to establish a self-sustaining population of settlers in the area, my idea is based on the founding of a settlement by the Portuguese in the 16th century, which will obviously end up clashing/interacting and mix with the local Khoisan and Bantu population, then over time this region is taken and maintained by the Dutch / English as historically happens with most Portuguese colonies, this ploy would allow the population of settlers in the area to be slightly increased , long before Otl
That's interesting! Do you have any idea as to why the Portuguese didn't establish a settlement historically, and what opportunities existed that might be used in an ATL to make that happen?
 
"bigger South Africa"; that would be relatively easy to achieve by having it include Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, maybe southern Mozambique, and surrounding propped up puppet states such as in Katanga, Angola, Mozambique (or what remains).
But that would be pretty cool to read about actually, and I don't think its been done!
 
fwiw I think your PODs so far are plausible enough, and these two colonies are small enough still that there's a good argument for holding most of the rest of world history constant at this point.
 
I did some research re: a Portuguese settlement on the Cape, and stumbled upon this battle that seems to have pushed the Portuguese away from the area. Perhaps this is getting too big in scope, but a part of me is attracted to the idea of avoiding this battle and thus a Portuguese trading post or fort is established at Capetown, which the Dutch later seize and hold on to during their war with Portugal (in addition to Angola of course). This would mean that the Dutch both get a foothold in the region at least a few years earlier than IOTL, and also that is isn't them building up a colony from scratch but rather taking an established one that presumably has a small Portuguese population, and so a better base to allow for faster, earlier population growth. And then the rest of the concept as laid out in my first post! Any thoughts on this, or is this an unnecessary addition?
 
That's interesting! Do you have any idea as to why the Portuguese didn't establish a settlement historically, and what opportunities existed that might be used in an ATL to make that happen?


Although the Portuguese had set foot near present-day Mossel Bay on 3 February 1488, they did not find the region very useful for their interests, also because at the same time Lisbon had a considerable presence in those regions that are now known as Congo, Angola and Mozambique ( where they came to claim territorial possession and deploy their own troops and in the case of Congo and Angola, also become heavily involved in local politics, particularly those concerning the slave trade )
now trying to understand, why the various Portuguese captains did not consider it useful to control the Cape with respect to the Congo or Angola, is mainly based on their highly strategic position in the context of the Atlantic exchange of slaves, gold, leather, ivory and other goods appreciated by the Portuguese, on the contrary their presence along the coast of Mozambique was about two things : the attempt to gain access to the gold produced by the state of Munhumutapa, and thus extending the Portuguese presence along the Zambezi valley and finally establishing a trade monopoly in the Swahili coast ( which formed a major part of the Indian Ocean trade ) the Western Cape, in comparison, offered little of immediate/obvious value to the Portuguese, certainly local Khoikhoi herders were sometimes willing to trade with Portuguese crews ( and later, with Dutch crews ) but were usually hostile to their presence ( for good reason, as both groups of sailors were inclined to simply take what they wanted, livestock in particular ) the only value the Portuguese crews could seeing the Cape was from a logistical point of view ( as a stop to stock up on food, but even Sant'Elena was considered more easily usable, almost at zero cost ) but this was not enough to justify the risk of further expanding the already scarce resources intended to control, administer and protect the vast, growing Portuguese empire, but tremendously exposed to external aggression, therefore I believe that if Portugal were to rapidly lose all its other bases scattered across Africa due to a war ( whether the English, French or Dutch it doesn't matter ) or the local potentates ( I'm thinking of Mozambique or Congo ) proved to be more capable of militarily resisting Lisbon, we would have seen the latter having to re-evaluate the strategic position of the Cape, believing that the risk of creating a settlement is worth the possibility of strangling rivals' trade routes to India

furthermore, it should not be forgotten that even in Otl the British, during the 4th Anglo - Dutch War , had played with the idea of creating a settlement in the area, so as to be able to interrupt traffic between the Dutch Republic and its colonies, or that in 1821, when the government had proposed a call for inclusion in the colony, almost 80 thousand had come forward to participate, but the parliament, considering it could not control such a large number of people, preferred to limit the number of settlers to 4000
 
Last edited:
I did some research re: a Portuguese settlement on the Cape, and stumbled upon this battle that seems to have pushed the Portuguese away from the area. Perhaps this is getting too big in scope, but a part of me is attracted to the idea of avoiding this battle and thus a Portuguese trading post or fort is established at Capetown, which the Dutch later seize and hold on to during their war with Portugal (in addition to Angola of course). This would mean that the Dutch both get a foothold in the region at least a few years earlier than IOTL, and also that is isn't them building up a colony from scratch but rather taking an established one that presumably has a small Portuguese population, and so a better base to allow for faster, earlier population growth. And then the rest of the concept as laid out in my first post! Any thoughts on this, or is this an unnecessary addition?

I think it would be an excellent Pod for the history of the Cape, especially because the colony would have about 140 years more than Otl to develop and grow, furthermore this would also encourage the other powers ( French, Dutch and English, I wouldn't rule out the Spanish either, especially if the Iberian union were to take place like Otl, given that I imagine they will send some garrison to defend the area, so as to increase the number of Europeans on site even minimally ) to try a similar strategy so as not to give Portugal an advantage


Without also excluding the possibility of limiting the British presence in Africa to the region alone ( if possible ) so as to incentivize London to focus more on the development of the Cape, as well as encouraging the settlement of settlers loyal to the Crown on site ( unlike Otl , where Great Britain, due to its rapid expansion on the continent, ended up creating micro-regions of white settlement that were very disconnected from each other, and were therefore unable to stand on their own once the imperial umbrella stopped maintaining them in the decade between the 1950s and 60s, see the Kenyan White Highlands ( which hosted around 60 thousand settlers ) Rhodesia itself and various other regions scattered throughout Africa ) therefore limiting the possessions under London control would be very useful for channeling resources into Otl go elsewhere in South Africa's demographic and economic growth

@blackpenman
 
Last edited:
Top