Plausibility check: Scandinavian colonial empire

If there was a sizeable Scandinavian Empire to the north during the 17th-18th Centuries, what sort of role would it have played during the Napoleonic Wars later on? The Scandinavian states had a limited impact on the conflict and Sweden for quite a sustained period followed a policy of 'armed neutrality'.

A developed and industrialised Scandinavia would perhaps have a say in German unification.....and in the process, could we have seen Scandinavian armies on the Eastern Front in 1914.....siding with...who?
Butterflies, man, remember the butterflies! Assuming even that the French Revolution occurs roughly on-schedule with a point of divergence somewhere in the 17th century, any different Scandinavian involvement different at all from OTL-- likely, considering the factors behind the Battle of Copenhagen and all that-- would easily change the outcome of the war. Assuming that even that stays mostly the same, who's to say that a united Scandinavia would mean that Prussian unification of Germany would go along according to schedule? Would Wilhelm II even be born in such a timeline? Would there even be a World War One, much less one that starts in 1914?

Butterflies, always remember the butterflies!
 
Speaking of Germany, I wonder how the Germans would feel if Sweden managed to keep its part of Pomerania?
 
As always, an earlier POD lets you make changes more easily...perhaps if Norway gained the political upper hand prior to the 14th century, and the dynamic became Denmark vs. Norway or Norway vs. Sweden, you might see more colonization (since Norway of course is better positioned for that than the other two). Or if the Vikings have a better time in Vinland, or if Norway has enough independence to maintain Greenland. Any of those might result in Scandinavian colonial empires. A slight increase in birth rates in Scandinavia starting in the 11th century might do it, too.

Of course, the United Scandinavia POD is the most romantic, and would probably be the most successful of all of these.
 
Just use the tried-but-true United Scandinavia. United control over Baltic trade and lack of expenditure of resources against each other, and the lack of the ability of other powers to play the Scandinavians against each other, could lead to a formidable trade empire and colonial empire.

I actually have no idea how this would play out in the 17th century alone. Hrmm. The latest viable POD for a United Scandinavia that'd be a great power would be the Swedish attempts to conquer Denmark in the 17th century, but that's too late for New Sweden.
 
I actually have no idea how this would play out in the 17th century alone. Hrmm. The latest viable POD for a United Scandinavia that'd be a great power would be the Swedish attempts to conquer Denmark in the 17th century, but that's too late for New Sweden.

The Union was much earlier, though (1397).
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Scandinavia did noy have enough population to build a sizeable colonial empire, small chunks like those Sweden and Denmark held OTL was the absolute maximum they could achieve.
 
I think the only real way Sweden or any of the other Scandanavian countries can make a real colonial empire would be to have united under a truelly powerful Swedish monarch. have a sort of Scandanavian Empire that close too surrounds the baltic. this way they can get the population they need from the lithuanians seeing as, even united, the population would lag seeing how immagrants will always, at least in a trickle, go to the colonies.

not to mention in general a United Scandanavian Empire sounds pretty damn cool. So cool infact would anyone mind if i make a thread about what if Scandanavia were to actually stay united and spread out? see wat role it would play in Napoleonic wars, German unifacation, World War I and World War II?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Scandinavia did noy have enough population to build a sizeable colonial empire, small chunks like those Sweden and Denmark held OTL was the absolute maximum they could achieve.

I disagree the Scandinavian colonial empires could be a lot bigger. It is just unlikely. It could be interesting if Sweden lost in 1645 to Denmark, and gave New Sweden to Denmark, with Denmarks better relationship with Netherland and England, it wouldn't be conquered at least not that early, giving it a chance to create a stable Scandinavian presence in NA (of course in case of a victory in 1645, Denmark may have a worse relationship with Netherlands).
 
Scandinavia did noy have enough population to build a sizeable colonial empire,

Weren't those the famous last words of Ethelred the Unready?

Fact is, while the carrying capacity of Scandinavia is much lower per square mile than countries such as England, France and Ukraine. there are a lot of square miles in Scandinavia. Also, some areas, such as the Oslo-Stockholm-Denmark areas can support a decent number.

What is more, the area has a long history of hitting its demographic maximum and then exporting the surplus. Often by sea, but not always. From the Dark ages Goths and Vandals, to the Vikings, to the 19th century emigration to the USA. The area always produces more people than you'd think, which then proceed to smoothly move elsewhere. (Often not so sooomthly for the elsewhere, admittedly)

The thing about a united Scandinavia is that it'd be likely to inherit the Swedish focus on Russia and the eastern Baltic.
Of couse, Russia struggled with Sweden alone. A united Scandinavia could score a decisive victory early on. Russia just couldn't focus that much of its power there.

A "United Scandinavia" might end up encompassing areas we do not think of as Scandinavian OTL. I could see a situation where the whole of the Baltic is a Scandinavian lake, with the Baltic sates the breadbasket of the empire, and Russia landlocked in the North, with their ports on the Black Sea.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Weren't those the famous last words of Ethelred the Unready?

Fact is, while the carrying capacity of Scandinavia is much lower per square mile than countries such as England, France and Ukraine. there are a lot of square miles in Scandinavia. Also, some areas, such as the Oslo-Stockholm-Denmark areas can support a decent number.

What is more, the area has a long history of hitting its demographic maximum and then exporting the surplus. Often by sea, but not always. From the Dark ages Goths and Vandals, to the Vikings, to the 19th century emigration to the USA. The area always produces more people than you'd think, which then proceed to smoothly move elsewhere. (Often not so sooomthly for the elsewhere, admittedly)

The thing about a united Scandinavia is that it'd be likely to inherit the Swedish focus on Russia and the eastern Baltic.
Of couse, Russia struggled with Sweden alone. A united Scandinavia could score a decisive victory early on. Russia just couldn't focus that much of its power there.

A "United Scandinavia" might end up encompassing areas we do not think of as Scandinavian OTL. I could see a situation where the whole of the Baltic is a Scandinavian lake, with the Baltic sates the breadbasket of the empire, and Russia landlocked in the North, with their ports on the Black Sea.

I agree, a unified Scandinavian Empire more or less have to focus on the east, because that were the major threat comes from.
 

Deleted member 1487

A united Scandinavia with the Baltic states is likely to have a population close to the UK, with lots of potential for population growth and export, plus a great potential for revenue. The Baltics provided a sizable chunk of Dutch trade, endearing them to the Scandinavians. Plus with a larger, undistracted population, the Russians would have a hell of a time trying to go to war against them. If they ever had someone like Gustav Adolph, they would be truly a formidable power that would scare the shit out of the Poles and probably form a leadership position over Protestant Germany, maybe helping them win independence from the Habsburgs in the 30 years war.
 
*Gustavus survives Lützen
*Ends the 30-years war with a bunch of decisive victories
*Unites northern germany, forming the Swedish-German Empire.
*Colonize New Sweden with war weary Germans.
*Conquer Denmark completley.
*Conquer northern Poland & Baltics.
And so on.
 
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