Plausibility Check : Poland Looks West

Suddenly this idea simply crossed through my mind.... It does strike me as cool enough to imagine the Poles more west-oriented.... :cool:

I'll be straight to the obstacles that need to be dealt with for realizing this idea. Germans, even the ones the Poles immediately neighboring with (northeast Germans), were more densely populous and indeed formidable. I simply see no window for this idea to be realized without severely destabilizing Northeast Germany so as to provide the Poles the opportunity to enter. My idea is to have Mongols do it. But to have them overrunning Poland may result in Poland severely crippled and can even resulted to the opposite of my aim here (and by no means Polonization. Got it, Susano ??). I wonder if the face of a more pressuring Mongols, the Poles would instead to eventually choose to submit peacefully, and then give the Mongols a free passage to advance further into Europe, entering the HRE... It doesn't seem like this would do good for Poland's reputation in Europe later though....

Or is there any other way to make this happen with PoD no earlier than 1000 ? And will this result a reduction of HRE's territory or simply a Poland that is involved in HRE's internal affairs ? Seems like the later to me though....

Thoughts ?
 
IOTL, Poland was mostly spared the Black Death. If we can somehow make it more severe in Germany without harming Poland, we can have Poland expand into the region simply from population.
 
IOTL, Poland was mostly spared the Black Death. If we can somehow make it more severe in Germany without harming Poland, we can have Poland expand into the region simply from population.

Keep in mind that I'm not looking for Polonization of Brandenburg of anything, though a Polish diaspora there on a scale that of OTL Ukraine and Belarus will be just fine.
 
How far are you willing to go back? There's lots of opportunity for heterogeneity in the region east of the Elbe.
 
Maybe Poland united by Silesian Piasts, after victory of Henry the Pious over Mongols at Legnica? If his successors manage to subdue rival Masovia, we`ll have 13th century consolidated Poland with roughly modern borders minus Stettin. In such scenario Piasts might join HRE, and expand their influence and domain west.
 
Maybe Poland united by Silesian Piasts, after victory of Henry the Pious over Mongols at Legnica? If his successors manage to subdue rival Masovia, we`ll have 13th century consolidated Poland with roughly modern borders minus Stettin. In such scenario Piasts might join HRE, and expand their influence and domain west.

What about Bohemia? If the Silesian Piast had consolidated their power in Poland, could their turn their attention to that other kingdom? Maybe a dynastical alliance that eventually make the Polish king inheriting Bohemia.
 
Boleslaw III Wrymouth doesn't divide Poland between his sons in his will in 1138 and the country stays united. That gets rid of 200 years of fragmentation and allows Poland to stay strong at the same time the Holy Roman Emperors are weak from the Investiture Controversy. A strong Polish kingdom also removes the Teutonic Knights, since they won't be needed to conquer Prussia. This probably removes the Polish-Lithuanian union, which greatly reduces Polis opportunities for expanding in the East, forcing the Poles to go West. Maybe a later Polish king will be able to take Silesia and other territories in the West by seizing on moments of weakness. I would do this TL but I don't know very much about the period.

Or, much later, you could have the Saxon Wettins gain a hereditary kingship for their dynasty while still retaining Saxony. This results in a stronger Poland with a large, rich possession in the middle of Germany. They will be forced to focus on the West to safeguard Saxony.
 
The best opportunity would be: Poland claims itself the protector of the Slavonic peoples from Lusatia to Wagria/Fehmarn (Germania Slavica) in the 10th century. You would need a slightly stronger Poland, perhaps a bit earlier Christianized. Then Germans and Poles may quarrel about settling, converting, and enfeoffing the Obotrites, Hevlelli and all the rest. These regions were relatively sparsely populated, and most of the Vendish people there weren' t organized into larger political compounds.

This might indeed lead to a Polish (Eastern) Brandenburg ...
 
Originally posted by imperialaquila
Boleslaw III Wrymouth doesn't divide Poland between his sons in his will in 1138 and the country stays united. That gets rid of 200 years of fragmentation and allows Poland to stay strong at the same time the Holy Roman Emperors are weak from the Investiture Controversy. A strong Polish kingdom also removes the Teutonic Knights, since they won't be needed to conquer Prussia. This probably removes the Polish-Lithuanian union, which greatly reduces Polis opportunities for expanding in the East, forcing the Poles to go West. Maybe a later Polish king will be able to take Silesia and other territories in the West by seizing on moments of weakness. I would do this TL but I don't know very much about the period.

Small correction, if I may. If Poland remains united after Bolesław's death, Polish king has no need to reconquer Silesia - it was already Polish at that time.

Personally I believe the latest time for Poland to turn west was the end of Piast dynasty. Casimir the Great was preparing to war against Luxembourg rulers of Czechia and Brandenburg when he died. Had je succeeded, there was a big chance for Poland to (re)gain Silesia and win some control over Pomerania.
 
How far are you willing to go back? There's lots of opportunity for heterogeneity in the region east of the Elbe.

My aim is actually for a divergence after 1200.

Not really looking for so much heterogeneity, just a Polish political expansion westward (It seems doubtful to me that in basic OTL's PLC-Saxony personal union was Polish expansion, instead that of Saxony's King's). If it can result in a sizable minority of Polish population in Northeast Germany it'll be good, but preferably no further than that demographically.
 
Originally posted by Ridwan Asher
My aim is actually for a divergence after 1200.

Then your best choice is either "Silesian Piasts reunite Poland" by thrashing-mad or my scenario of "Casimir the Great lives longer" with additional "and has legal son". In case of Silesian scenario though, I wouldn't count on Henry the Pious - I doubt if he was able to defeat the Mongols. OTOH had he succeeded, he would have been considered a saviour of Christanity and his prestige would have been enormous, in Poland and abroad. Anyway, I think that Henry the Probus, prince of Breslau and Cracow might be also a likely candidate for Poland's reunification and turning it more towards west.
 
Boleslaw III Wrymouth doesn't divide Poland between his sons in his will in 1138 and the country stays united. That gets rid of 200 years of fragmentation and allows Poland to stay strong
As I have said before, the fragmentation was not an accident, but result of the existing tribal law system. How do you amend the system and how do you prevent intermittent civil wars?

My aim is actually for a divergence after 1200.

Not really looking for so much heterogeneity, just a Polish political expansion westward (It seems doubtful to me that in basic OTL's PLC-Saxony personal union was Polish expansion, instead that of Saxony's King's). If it can result in a sizable minority of Polish population in Northeast Germany it'll be good, but preferably no further than that demographically.

How long does the Poland need to hold the land? Untill the modern day? At least for few years? Few generations? How large the fief can be? Can it be a city given to Poles as pledge from HR Emperor? Must the Polish kings be recognised as rulers of large area in HRE? Can the territory stay within HRE? Must Poland remain independent of HRE?

Scenario 1: Boleslaw I Chrobry conquest of Lusatian Mark is accepted by by HRE.
Problem 1: Why?
Problem 2: They are still going to lose it.

Scenario 2: One or other duke of Poland breaks the knee before HR Emperor. When (If) Ascanians die the Margravate of Brandenburg eventually ends in hands of a Pole.
Problem 1: Do Ascanians still die out?
Problem 2: What state is Poland in during the years of 1320 to 1415? Did HRE allow the country to fragment? Was fragmentation encouraged? Was unification of Poland favoured or opposed by Emperor? Is there a Poland?
 
How long does the Poland need to hold the land? Untill the modern day? At least for few years? Few generations? How large the fief can be? Can it be a city given to Poles as pledge from HR Emperor? Must the Polish kings be recognised as rulers of large area in HRE? Can the territory stay within HRE? Must Poland remain independent of HRE?

Basically long enough to get a large Polish population in overall Northeast Germany surviving until 20th century. Preferably that Polish domains in HRE remain part of HRE, though that'd be unnecessary for Silesia and lands east of Oder-Neisse...
 
Basically long enough to get a large Polish population in overall Northeast Germany surviving until 20th century. Preferably that Polish domains in HRE remain part of HRE, though that'd be unnecessary for Silesia and lands east of Oder-Neisse...

That makes another problem. "Germanness" (hmm, Deutschtum) has for most of history greater cultural gravity.

When protestant Czechs fled to exile during 30-years war, they lasted two generations in Germany. In Poland, handful still maiintains separate identity today.
 
Originally posted by Gladi
In Poland, handful still maiintains separate identity today.

German minority in Poland lives mostly in Silesia. They are descendents of the Germans who lived there before 1939-1945. Also, there is a difference between sense of nationality in 17th and 20-21st century.
 
Originally posted by Gladi


German minority in Poland lives mostly in Silesia. They are descendents of the Germans who lived there before 1939-1945. Also, there is a difference between sense of nationality in 17th and 20-21st century.

I was talking about Poles of czech-ethnicity, of which there are about 300. :)))

Likewise, when various members of Austria were invited to settle in Russia and Romania, they managed to hold on their identities. I personally knew a Czech man who was born under Tsar in modernday Ukraine and whose family lived there for almost 200 years.

The Czechs, Poles and Germans in the East did not feel the need to abondon their languages and customs.

Whereas what used to be the Czech quarter in Berlin in 1650 is conspiciously devoid of Czechs today. Vienna was the largest "Czech" city just little over a century ago, as it was also home to tens of thousands of Poles and Hungarians and Slovaks and Croats. Today, Czech-speakers make up of 0.2 percent of Austrian population and there is a single gymnasium with Czech as a primary language. And many of those are recent immigrants! Hell Croatia, has more indigenous people of czech cultural identity, than Austria!


EDIT: For any progress to be made against the Enemy ( :p ) we must stop bleeding people first.
 
That makes another problem. "Germanness" (hmm, Deutschtum) has for most of history greater cultural gravity.

When protestant Czechs fled to exile during 30-years war, they lasted two generations in Germany. In Poland, handful still maiintains separate identity today.

Then let's degrade it a bit : large enough to be able to maintain their Polishness. Basically what I primarily want is political dominance that last for centuries, similar to what happened in the Ruthenias IOTL. But it can also result in leakage of the Germans under the rule of the Polish Kings to their other, non-German domains.

And I personally don't oppose to the idea of letting Poland enter HRE ;)
 
Then I think Poland in HRE could be be it provided, the emperor is a stabilizing influence. Unfortunately, I have modhammer coming my way so can't do much with the idea.
 
Then I think Poland in HRE could be be it provided, the emperor is a stabilizing influence. Unfortunately, I have modhammer coming my way so can't do much with the idea.

Well, as long as the Poles won't be Germanized :) (both diaspora in Germany and the homeland, though the later will certainly be stretching it, being to large), but stronger German cultural influence is acceptable.
 
Top