Plausibility Check : Percussion cap in the 1780' ?

As we known, mercurium fulminate was discovered in 1800 by Howard. But some years before, french chemist Berthollet discovered the uses of silver fulminate. My idea is having a wealthy patron, the Duke of Orleans, Colonel General of the Hussars, gathering a team of "household scientists" in order to create a new carbine : Berthollet, former physician of the Orleans household, Lepage (who created a percussion lock in 1807 OTL), armorer of the Orleans household, and Lavoisier, still Director of the Powder and Salpetrae Administration, with ancient links to Orleans. OTL, the new hussars carbine was the model 1786. Is it possible to have a working percussion lock carbine by the end of the 1780' ?

It's not outside the realm of possibility that fulminates could have been discovered earlier. Silver fulminate was not prepared by Claude Louis Berthollet. Like mercury(II) fulminate, it was originally prepared by Edward Charles Howard. Berthollet is known to have prepared potassium chlorate, which was used in early percussion caps.
 
It's not outside the realm of possibility that fulminates could have been discovered earlier. Silver fulminate was not prepared by Claude Louis Berthollet. Like mercury(II) fulminate, it was originally prepared by Edward Charles Howard. Berthollet is known to have prepared potassium chlorate, which was used in early percussion caps.

Berthollet described (1758, then 1788) what he called argent fulminant. I do not know enough chemistry to see the difference between this and silver fulminate, but this compound, created from silver dissolved with nitric acid, then compounded with ammoniac, has explosive properties. Enough to be used in percussion caps ?
 
Berthollet described (1758, then 1788) what he called argent fulminant. I do not know enough chemistry to see the difference between this and silver fulminate, but this compound, created from silver dissolved with nitric acid, then compounded with ammoniac, has explosive properties. Enough to be used in percussion caps ?

A lot of the confusion comes from the fact that "fulminating silver" has been used to also describe silver nitride, Ag3N, as an alchemical term. This compound can be prepared from dissolving silver oxide or silver nitrate in ammonia solution. Silver fulminate, AgCNO, can be prepared by treating dissolving silver in nitric acid to make silver nitrate. Then it is carefully poured into ethanol. You can also react silver carbonate, AgCO3, with ammonia solution. Silver fulminate shouldn't be prepare in large quantities because it will detonate under its own weight. Silver fulminate did have some military applications in detonators, but you more commonly see it in snap bang explosives.

Mercury(II) fulminate, Hg(CNO)2 is far more stable than silver fulminate. It's not outside the realm of possibility that true fulminates could have been prepared earlier and found military applications. The science itself is fairly simple and just requires someone to experiment. What could happen is have silver fulminate and mercury(II) fulminate be discovered not long after the discovery of potassium chlorate, KClO3. This would lead to earlier percussion caps.
 
You would still have problems with tolerances, or the lack of the ability to mass produce to finer tolerances required for accuracy. And also the problem of the piece fouling with the burnt waste of the propellant; I presume these guns will still use gunpowder?
Or will they? I don't pretend to be an expert in either the practice of firing a black powder weapon or in the finer dark arts of chemistry!
Could the development of the percussion cap allow for developments in propellant?
 
You would still have problems with tolerances, or the lack of the ability to mass produce to finer tolerances required for accuracy. And also the problem of the piece fouling with the burnt waste of the propellant; I presume these guns will still use gunpowder?
Or will they? I don't pretend to be an expert in either the practice of firing a black powder weapon or in the finer dark arts of chemistry!
Could the development of the percussion cap allow for developments in propellant?

Going for (relatively) mass-produced percussion locks in the 1780' is the max of what can be done. Smokeless powder needs, AFAIK, many more decades of chemistry research.
 
Going for (relatively) mass-produced percussion locks in the 1780' is the max of what can be done. Smokeless powder needs, AFAIK, many more decades of chemistry research.

I'll agree with you on this one. Organic chemistry was significantly lagging in terms of research and wouldn't really take off until vitalism was disproved with the artificial synthesis of urea from an ammonium cynate. We take it for granted now, but the 19th century advances in organic chemistry were a big deal. I can suspend disbelief when it comes to fulminates since the science likely would have been something a late 18th century chemist would have and could have attempted, but jumping to nitroglycerine and guncotton is a stretch.
 
One of the huge problems for percussion caps, as for guncotton, is the purity of the chemicals needed. Obviously, they solved the problem earlier for percussion caps, but it's still a problem for pushing the inventions back.

Silver fulminate had a distinct reputation for going off if you looked at it funny. Mercury fulminate was stabler, but wanted pretty pure chemicals and very well regulated processing before it could be usable in bulk. Again, a top chemist could produce a handful at outrageous prices for noble's shooting guns - but industrializing that level of accuracy for the millions of rounds needed for a major war is much, much harder.

Honestly, I doubt that you can push it forward very much without pushing forward the science of chemistry.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Perhaps their initial rollout is as an enhancement for jaegers/riflemen, as reliability matters a lot more for them. (And there's not a huge number.)
 
One of the huge problems for percussion caps, as for guncotton, is the purity of the chemicals needed. Obviously, they solved the problem earlier for percussion caps, but it's still a problem for pushing the inventions back.

Silver fulminate had a distinct reputation for going off if you looked at it funny. Mercury fulminate was stabler, but wanted pretty pure chemicals and very well regulated processing before it could be usable in bulk. Again, a top chemist could produce a handful at outrageous prices for noble's shooting guns - but industrializing that level of accuracy for the millions of rounds needed for a major war is much, much harder.

Honestly, I doubt that you can push it forward very much without pushing forward the science of chemistry.

All right, very interesting. What were the hardest obtainable chemicals ? Nitric Acid ? Ammoniac ?


Does any one know what was the quantity of primer needed for a percussion cap ? If something around 1 cg, the quantity needed for a million rounds is 10 kg. Is there too much to produce with the 1780s' possibilities.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Hmm...


1787: Charles Bladen discovers Mercury (II) Fulminate, a powerful primary explosive. He experiments with using it as a propellant, but the resultant explosion violently destroys his test weapon.

1789: Bladen and two of his old army cronies prove that the explosion of Mercury (II) Fulminate can trigger a secondary charge of gunpowder, and before the end of the year have built a test weapon. The cost is considerable, however, and nothing comes of it beyond a few demonstration weapons for Royalty.

1796: With the Revolutionary Wars hotting up, the "percussion lock" garners attention. Howard takes up the project, and proves that the percussion lock allows a weapon to fire more reliably during the rain. Suggestions it should be taken up are demurred owing to the fantastic costs it would involve.

1799: Ezekiel Baker's rifle is considered for the Rifle Brigade, and is produced in two versions - one with a flintlock, the other using the percussion lock. The percussion lock version is shown to be more reliable and accurate than all other competitors, and is adopted - though the design of the rifle is amended so the hammer can be replaced with a flint if need be and the frizzen is retained.

1802: Percussion cap production is holding steady, and it looks as if it will be possible to provide approximately two hundred to three hundred caps per man in the field as part of the rifle accoutrements - replacing the fine powder-horn.

1805: The Rifle Brigade goes into combat for the first time. The results achieved are noteworthy, and their reliability makes them a fine asset to the British Army.

1807: The French voltigeurs begin to use their own "fusils de percussion" in some elite units. As with the British, the production capabilities of the still-new device are the primary impediment to widespread deployment.



1820: P1819 Percussion Musket adopted in the United Kingdom, making it the second Great Power to switch to a standard-issue percussion musket. The others follow in short order.



(Doesn't set the world on fire, but probably changes the Sharpe books. ;) )
 
All right, very interesting. What were the hardest obtainable chemicals ? Nitric Acid ? Ammoniac ?

Nitric acid wasn't terribly difficult to make and the process of deriving it from saltpeter (potassium nitrate) and sulfuric acid had been known since the 17th century. It was discovered centuries earlier by the Arabs. Preparation of pure ammonia from sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride) was accomplished in 1774. The whole point is the leap to fulminates could have been made earlier since the science at the time was sufficiently advanced enough and understood.

Does any one know what was the quantity of primer needed for a percussion cap ? If something around 1 cg, the quantity needed for a million rounds is 10 kg. Is there too much to produce with the 1780s' possibilities.

To put things in perspective, snap bangs only contain about 80 micrograms of silver fulminate. The original percussion cap used a primer which was a mix of potassium chlorate, mercury(II) fulminate, sulfur, and charcoal. Some of my research into this implies early mixtures contained an eighth of a grain of potassium chlorate, which is about 8.1 mg. Potassium chlorate acts as an oxidizing agent (saltpeter acts as this in black gunpowder). Potassium chlorate produces nice flames when heated with carbon. This demonstration is typically done using potassium chlorate and sugar, usually in the form of a gummy bear. This is a very exothermic reaction and there are YouTube videos showing this demonstration. Sulfur was, and and still is, an ingredient in black gunpowder. Sulfur acts as a fuel for the mixture along with charcoal.

As far as pre-industrial standards goes for production, who knows? My guess is there would be some limited use of percussion caps if they are introduced during the Napoleonic Wars. The butterflies beyond that are pretty difficult to predict.
 
Nitric acid wasn't terribly difficult to make and the process of deriving it from saltpeter (potassium nitrate) and sulfuric acid had been known since the 17th century. It was discovered centuries earlier by the Arabs. Preparation of pure ammonia from sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride) was accomplished in 1774. The whole point is the leap to fulminates could have been made earlier since the science at the time was sufficiently advanced enough and understood.



To put things in perspective, snap bangs only contain about 80 micrograms of silver fulminate. The original percussion cap used a primer which was a mix of potassium chlorate, mercury(II) fulminate, sulfur, and charcoal. Some of my research into this implies early mixtures contained an eighth of a grain of potassium chlorate, which is about 8.1 mg. Potassium chlorate acts as an oxidizing agent (saltpeter acts as this in black gunpowder). Potassium chlorate produces nice flames when heated with carbon. This demonstration is typically done using potassium chlorate and sugar, usually in the form of a gummy bear. This is a very exothermic reaction and there are YouTube videos showing this demonstration. Sulfur was, and and still is, an ingredient in black gunpowder. Sulfur acts as a fuel for the mixture along with charcoal.

As far as pre-industrial standards goes for production, who knows? My guess is there would be some limited use of percussion caps if they are introduced during the Napoleonic Wars. The butterflies beyond that are pretty difficult to predict.

All right, thanks. My idea for arming the 6 hussars regiments of 612 troopers each around 1786 is not so ASB then. Maybe later expanding to mixed light troops (chasseurs : cavalry+infantry, 6 regiments around 1786), then to specialized light troops (12 regiments of chasseurs à cheval and 12 battalions of chasseurs à pied in 1788). Probably too much logistic troubles to equip the line infantry and cavalry before two decades at least.
 
Horse Guards is the headquarters of the British Army as in an address not a regiment
It looks over the parade ground where the Trooping of the Colour is held

All right !

But were not the weapons be under the umbrella of the Master General of the Ordnance seated, as I read, in the Tower, rather than in the Commander-in-Chief's department ? Or did "ordnance" meant only big guns ?
 
Not too certain as to who would inspect firearms, or if they were classed as ordinance - they might have been.
However, the point being that the CIC of the British Army resided there, the most famous being the Duke of York during the Napoleonic era.
All departments ultimately report to him!
 
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