Plausibility check: Muslim China

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
  • Start date

Deleted member 67076

So, I was wondering if it would be possible with a POD of 700, to have China have a population that is majority Muslim by 2013.

Would missionaries converting the steppe nomads help? Or the founding of an Islamic state near or in China proper help as well?
 

Asami

Banned
So, I was wondering if it would be possible with a POD of 700, to have China have a population that is majority Muslim by 2013.

Would missionaries converting the steppe nomads help? Or the founding of an Islamic state near or in China proper help as well?

I'd say that the Timurids decide to descend upon China rather than Persia, and become Chinese (like all conquerers) and end up Islamicizing China.
 
By the Timur embarked on his campaign against Ming he was old, also whats to stop sinicization of the conquerors.
 
So, I was wondering if it would be possible with a POD of 700, to have China have a population that is majority Muslim by 2013.

Would missionaries converting the steppe nomads help? Or the founding of an Islamic state near or in China proper help as well?

IMO, nomads being Muslims help a lot. Think Khitans and Jurchens were Muslim. The Mongolians too. So you will have almost 400 years of Muslim rule over China up till 1350. Then Manchus will be Muslims, so it will give another 250 years of Muslim rule. This will give very large Han Muslim population.
However, I think China can't become Islamisized better than India. Also whole Chinese system is based on Confucian. So IMO at best they can be some 30% MUslim population in China.
 

Deleted member 67076

IMO, nomads being Muslims help a lot. Think Khitans and Jurchens were Muslim. The Mongolians too. So you will have 300 year of Muslim rule over China. This will give very large Han Muslim population.
However, I think China can't become Islamisized better than India. Also whole Chinese system is besed on Confucian. So IMO at best they can be some 30% MUslim population in China.
Would it be possible to adapt Islam to the Confucian system and if so, would that help?
 

Nihao

Banned
Would it be possible to adapt Islam to the Confucian system and if so, would that help?

Islamic faith talks about discipline oneself and contributing to the one god, which seems unfit to the Confucian mindset of discipline oneself and contributing to the family and community, and is relatively downgradeing the status of the gods in the mentality of the Chinese. Although the Islamic faith also talks about "treating strangers like your brothers and sisters", the part of "living for Allah" still didn't quite approachable to the Chinese.

All in all, if you want to combining the Islam with Confucianism, you would need to solve the differences, like what the Buddhism and Christianity did.
 
Check the Hui culture for how it would look. Muslim Han, actually quite integrated - they have also wushu forms, I heard.
 

Nihao

Banned
Check the Hui culture for how it would look. Muslim Han, actually quite integrated - they have also wushu forms, I heard.

But they're still alien to people who lives in the China proper, mainly for geographical and historical reasons--the lands of Hui were usually being treated as "territory " rather than "province" by various Chinese dynasties, which means the Hui still not quite integrated into the Chinese politics/culture, therefore it's a blockade for archiving the goals.
 
But they're still alien to people who lives in the China proper, mainly for geographical and historical reasons--the lands of Hui were usually being treated as "territory " rather than "province" by various Chinese dynasties, which means the Hui still not quite integrated into the Chinese politics/culture, therefore it's a blockade for archiving the goals.

Depend, there is a few groups and somes are quite close to 'heartland' and integrated, and frankly, they are close to Han in culture.... well, by modern days.
 
Depend, there is a few groups and somes are quite close to 'heartland' and integrated, and frankly, they are close to Han in culture.... well, by modern days.
That's because the Hui designation is a bizarre and artificial classification based on religious lines. It can lump together the completely assimilated people who happen to be of Arab descent alongside the full-throated traditionalists. Some Hui might be able to serve as models for a Muslim China, but I admit that some might not.
 

Deleted member 67076

But they're still alien to people who lives in the China proper, mainly for geographical and historical reasons--the lands of Hui were usually being treated as "territory " rather than "province" by various Chinese dynasties, which means the Hui still not quite integrated into the Chinese politics/culture, therefore it's a blockade for archiving the goals.
Any way to fix that?
 
The distribution of conversions could also push China toward breaking up into several smaller countries with interesting implications.
 

Deleted member 67076

The distribution of conversions could also push China toward breaking up into several smaller countries with interesting implications.
Could smaller states with varying cultures be easier to convert than large monolithic states?
 

Deleted member 67076

They would be easier to conquer certainly, but we're already assuming the conquerors are taking all of China anyway as they did OTL.
Yes. Like say Timur could have.

But would a gradual conquest of multiple states in China make conversion easier?
 
Yes. Like say Timur could have.

But would a gradual conquest of multiple states in China make conversion easier?
I doubt it. But again, you might end up with three or four different countries some of which have large Muslim majorities (as opposed to regions with large Muslim minorities).

Also, 800 years with Islam as the state religion would still give the country a distinctly Islamic feel even if they don't outnumber everyone else. Islamic holidays would become national holidays. The flag might have a crescent. Arabic might be seen as simpler to use than the Chinese script and replace it in official documentation.

It all depends on the attitude of the nomadic rulers. China historically changed their conquerors rather than the conquerors changing China. Would that be true if their rulers were deeply devout Muslims? Or Christians? Would any aggressive attempts to reshape China cause an insurgency that overthrows the invaders rather quickly? These are all things to consider.
 
Plausibility Check: Reverse the ERE and WRE's situations

Is it plausible for the ERE and WRE to switch fates? ERE gets destroyed within a century or two, the WRE survives for a similar length as OTL ERE. Emphasis on 'survive'.
 

Deleted member 67076

Is it plausible for the ERE and WRE to switch fates? ERE gets destroyed within a century or two, the WRE survives for a similar length as OTL ERE. Emphasis on 'survive'.
Yes. You'd need a POD in the 400s, preferably the early 400s, to strengthen the WRE.
 
Top