Plausibility Check: Microwave replaces the Atomic Bomb

[Aluma]

Hi, I'm a newbie and this is my first post here
I'm not a nuclear physicist so I really hope I dont upset anyone, however I've been wanting to ask this a forever ago, so here it goes:

As most are aware, nuclear bombs can produce large electromagnetic fields(EMP) that can temporarily render electronic equipment inactive, which by itself does not directly causes the loss of lives unlike a nuclear blast/fallouts who has a massive death toll.
Like sure it can cause the death of someone requiring medical equipment to survive and(if used in a large scale) would have huge economical and technologic effect, but by itself it doesnt cause much harm to the human body.

So here is where the microwaves come in, according to Wikipedia these are the effects of them on the human body:

Microwaves are non-ionizing radiation, which means that microwave photons do not contain sufficient energy to ionize molecules or break chemical bonds, or cause DNA damage, as ionizing radiation such as x-rays or ultraviolet can. The word "radiation" refers to energy radiating from a source and not to radioactivity. The main effect of absorption of microwaves is to heat materials; the electromagnetic fields cause polar molecules to vibrate. It has not been shown conclusively that microwaves (or other non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation) have significant adverse biological effects at low levels.

During World War II, it was observed that individuals in the radiation path of radar installations experienced clicks and buzzing sounds in response to microwave radiation. Research by NASA in the 1970s has shown this to be caused by thermal expansion in parts of the inner ear. In 1955 Dr. James Lovelock was able to reanimate rats chilled to 0-1 °C using microwave diathermy.

When injury from exposure to microwaves occurs, it usually results from dielectric heating induced in the body. Exposure to microwave radiation can produce cataracts by this mechanism, because the microwave heating denatures proteins in the crystalline lens of the eye (in the same way that heat turns egg whites white and opaque). The lens and cornea of the eye are especially vulnerable because they contain no blood vessels that can carry away heat. Exposure to heavy doses of microwave radiation (as from an oven that has been tampered with to allow operation even with the door open) can produce heat damage in other tissues as well, up to and including serious burns that may not be immediately evident because of the tendency for microwaves to heat deeper tissues with higher moisture content

And weaponization of these effects do exist IOTL as seen here:

Active Denial System is a millimeter wave source that heats the water in a human target's skin and thus causes incapacitating pain. It was developed by the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory and Raytheo for riot-control duty. Though intended to cause severe pain while leaving no lasting damage, concern has been voiced as to whether the system could cause irreversible damage to the eyes. There has yet to be testing for long-term side effects of exposure to the microwave beam. It can also destroy unshielded electronics. The device comes in various sizes, including attached to a Humvee.
Bofors HPM Blackout is a high-powered microwave weapon that is said to be able to destroy at short distance a wide variety of commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) electronic equipment and is purportedly non-lethal. The effective radiated power (ERP) of the EL/M-2080 Green Pine radar makes it a hypothetical candidate for conversion into a directed-energy weapon, by focusing pulses of radar energy on target missiles. The energy spikes are tailored to enter missiles through antennas or sensor apertures where they can fool guidance systems, scramble computer memories or even burn out sensitive electronic components. AESA radars mounted on fighter aircraft have been slated as directed energy weapons against missiles, however, a senior US Air Force officer noted: "they aren't particularly suited to create weapons effects on missiles because of limited antenna size, power and field of view". Potentially lethal effects are produced only inside 100 meters range, and disruptive effects at distances on the order of one kilometer. Moreover, cheap countermeasures can be applied to existing missiles

Meaning unlike EMPs they not only can affect electronics but people as well for non-lethal incapacitation and they seem to be able to be used against missiles too.
Of course there is the concern of it's adverse effect on the eyes and ears, possibly leading to blindness and deafness, but that aside it seem to be effective and far away from the horrors caused by atomic bombs.
Knowing that(as the article noted) by WWII those effects were known, could this technology have been developed earlier? I know this technology is fairly recent but the research on microwaves itself started during the late 1800s, taking place way before the start of the developement of nuclear weapons.
And if it was, could it have been used in a large scale like nukes did such as to incapacitate the population of a city?
Something like using a nuclear reactor(in case those were still created) to generate the energy required for it or with units being mass produced and deployed over the target cities in order for the incapacitation effect to have a large enough range for the target to be easily taken afterwards, maybe even an ICBM-like system down the line to act as anti-missile shields.

Also I know the change in mentality required for this to happen might be ASB, but I think it should be technically possible even if unlikely.

So what do you guys think?
In case I'm convinced I'm wrong about this I think I'll post about it on the ASB forum, otherwise I might make a follow-up to this post here.

Ah and for kicks and giggles, refer to the hypothetical microwave equivalent of the M.P. as Havana Project. Why? Because of this

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Functionally no. The Japanese actually did mess around with microwave weapons during WWII. The key hurdles to generating more than a few watts were solved in '37 and '40 with the Klystron and Cavity Magnetron. Research into the topic was going pretty fast in OTL, because everybody was interested in Microwaves for RADAR, you can add a few years here and there, but not that many.

The biggest problem with Microwave weapons is the sheer amount of power needed, ADS as an example is a 2MW weapon that is only effective in a narrow cone out to 700m, incapacitating a whole city would require exponentially more power, as the effect is a function of power per surface area, and thus a massive fixed power source connected to it to provide that power. This means it isn't deployable, as you can't move a powerplant that big

I mean you could do it, use a big space based solar array to power a space based system, be huge and given space lift costs massively expensive, but it could be done. This however runs into the next problem, namely that microwaves are fairly easy to stop, the frequencies that cause the most pain are easiest, air and water absorb them, lower frequencies can penetrate even some buildings, but are less efficient at incapacitation and thus need even more power. Even the lowest frequency microwaves can be stopped fairly easily, note the metal mesh on your microwave door, the lower the frequencies the wider the holes in the mesh can be to stop it

So no you can't replace nuclear weapons with microwaves

 

[Aluma]

Welp, RIP using my microwave to conquer Japan~
But thank you very much for the reply!
Is there any other alternative technology that could incapacitate a city then? I mean...without blowing it up
Otherwise I'll take the big L >.>

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Welp, RIP using my microwave to conquer Japan~
But thank you very much for the reply!
Is there any other alternative technology that could incapacitate a city then? I mean...without blowing it up
Otherwise I'll take the ASB big L >.>

Large quantities of poison gas

Failing that large quantities of a malodorant, assuming you can find one both nasty enough that is also storable and long lasting

 

[Aluma]

Large quantities of poison gas

Failing that large quantities of a malodorant, assuming you can find one both nasty enough that is also storable and long lasting

I read that there are some species of seaweed and fungi that naturally produce chroloform
Probably not the best bet but hey its less poisonous than..poison, though I think it's unlikely enough of those fungi/seaweed could be produced to supply the demands of the war effort. But hey! It's something at least.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Could you have a nuclear-pumped device that emits large quantities of microwaves? Not sure what the tactical or strategic value would be, but Edward Teller probably designed one just because he could.

 

[Aluma]

I asked that too

could it have been used in a large scale like nukes did such as to incapacitate the population of a city?
Something like using a nuclear reactor(in case those were still created) to generate the energy required for it

However according to RamscoopRaider it's not possible because

ADS as an example is a 2MW weapon that is only effective in a narrow cone out to 700m, incapacitating a whole city would require exponentially more power, as the effect is a function of power per surface area, and thus a massive fixed power source connected to it to provide that power. This means it isn't deployable, as you can't move a powerplant that big

So unless the nuclear reactor pumping it is small enough to be deployed into the target location alongside the ADS and has enough energy to generate a city-wide field it wouldnt be possible

 

[Dorknought]

It was a meeting with Dowding and some scientists at the experimental concrete Sound Mirrors in Kent that triggered discussion on a Death Ray to use against pilots (radio waves to kill). After calculating that the power needs couldn’t be met that someone raised the fact that Postal services had been experimenting with bouncing and reflecting low power radio waves. Perhaps this could be used to detect aircraft - maybe that would be useful?

 

[Llewwyy]

It was a meeting with Dowding and some scientists at the experimental concrete Sound Mirrors in Kent that triggered discussion on a Death Ray to use against pilots (radio waves to kill). After calculating that the power needs couldn’t be met that someone raised the fact that Postal services had been experimenting with bouncing and reflecting low power radio waves. Perhaps this could be used to detect aircraft - maybe that would be useful?

I thought that I saw something, in distant past, about a scientist, boffin, working on a "Deathray" but had some problems getting it to focus or to find the proper range. To solve his problem he made a radio ranging device, quite compact, so he could get the correct range to target. The fellows that he was demonstrating his death ray to were more interested in his ranging device than his death ray which he could not get to work.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

I asked that too

However according to RamscoopRaider it's not possible because

So unless the nuclear reactor pumping it is small enough to be deployed into the target location alongside the ADS and has enough energy to generate a city-wide field it wouldnt be possible

Mad Bad Rabbit isn't talking about using a nuclear reactor to pump the microwave emitter, he is talking about using a nuclear bomb to do it ala project Excalibur's X Ray Lasers. Use the plasma from the nuclear blast to excite a lasing medium and produce a microwave laser, or maser. This is theoretically possible, stars do it sometimes and a nuclear bomb is arguably just a very shortlived artificial star, but I don't know enough to say if the engineering is practical or not. I just didn't really think about nuclear blast generated masers, given you wanted a subsitute for nuclear weapons

 

[Aluma]

Mad Bad Rabbit isn't talking about using a nuclear reactor to pump the microwave emitter, he is talking about using a nuclear bomb to do it ala project Excalibur's X Ray Lasers. I just didn't really think about nuclear blast generated masers, given you wanted a subsitute for nuclear weapons

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted him >.>
Also that's fine, you're right that I did want to butterfly away nukes in this threat if possible.
However, like I said, using a nuclear reactor is also okay for me so long it achieve the purpose of incapacitating the target.
My main concern with using a nuclear explosion is that it kinda defeats the point of it if the blast or the fallout still harms the population since I was looking for a (mostly)non lethal way of achieving the same results of nuclear weaponry, so I picked microwaves as they seemed to be the best candidate for a not-completely-ASB substitute.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

My main concern with using a nuclear explosion is that it kinda defeats the point of it if the blast or the fallout still harms the population since I was looking for a (mostly)non lethal way of achieving the same results of nuclear weaponry, so I picked microwaves as they seemed to be the best candidate for a not-completely-ASB substitute.

Since the atmosphere is fairly transparent to microwaves, I was picturing a warhead that is launched above the atmosphere, aims some sort of masing package at surface targets, then triggers the nuclear explosion; a percentage of this is converted to a high-energy microwave beam that fries the target without physically damaging anything outside the beam (ignoring EMP effects) or dumping fallout into the atmosphere.

 

[Aluma]

If that could have been developed in time to end WWII it'd be perfect

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

If that could have been developed in time to end WWII it'd be perfect

We didn't have delivery systems capable of launching warheads into space; nor integrated circuits and precision actuators capable of tracking ground targets hundreds of miles below while moving at orbital speeds; nor fusion warheads able to pump a 2% efficient maser up to lethal beam intensities; nor a decade for Teller and colleagues to devise and test this amazing new way of blinding and burning enemy humans.

 

[Aluma]

Welp, I guess that settles it then :/

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Welp, I guess that settles it then :/

I mean yeah, if time travellers brought us some of those in 1940 it would certainly shorten the war; we could just ignite Tokyo and Penemunde and Dresden from orbit, incinerate German troops in France, etc. But being able to build such a thing before the 1960s would require so many technological PODs it would not be WWII

 

[garfieldleifrag]

The only way you might be able to get enough power to cause mass destruction via microwaves is via nuclear-pumped masers like those discussed earlier in the thread, which may not be possible (I couldn't find anything online about them, but x-rays have millions of times more energy per photon than microwaves so to get the same amount of energy you would have to produce millions of times more photons, which may or may not be possible. Someone with more knowledge about physics than me could probably answer this).

Even if they were, in most cases it would be better to just use a nuke, since from what I have seen online the hypothetical efficiency of nuclear-pumped x-ray lasers would be somewhere between 2.5 and 5% of the nuke's energy release. Meanwhile, using the nuke normally would cause almost all the released energy to be used in either the blast or prompt radiation. Using microwaves emitted by more conventional equipment as a "death ray" would almost certainly not be practical, since all the prototypes I have read about would have needed many seconds if not minutes of continuous exposure to heat someone up enough to kill them, and need huge amounts of power to do even that (so you need to carry around a generator too). Meanwhile a bullet will kill or injure someone as soon as they are shot, and guns are light enough to actually be man-portable.

 

[Aluma]

I know I'm kinda late for this, but could Infrasound or any type of Sonic Boom work if Microwaves doesnt?
I was looking into the Wikipedia and the article says a nuclear weapon can generate a great amount of it
Some of it's effects include hallucinations and irrational fear and it seems to affect internal organs such as the lungs & heart somewhat, so a large enough amount could incapacitate a lot of people

 

[RamscoopRaider]

I know I'm kinda late for this, but could Infrasound or any type of Sonic Boom work if Microwaves doesnt?
I was looking into the Wikipedia and the article says a nuclear weapon can generate a great amount of it
Some of it's effects include hallucinations and irrational fear and it seems to affect internal organs such as the lungs & heart somewhat, so a large enough amount could incapacitate a lot of people

Infrasound has the issue that it still follows the inverse square law, as in it rapidly gets weaker. Incapacitating someone with it is usually done at close range with a lot of power, ie a full set of 12 subwoofers a few feat away or a truck mounted sound cannon. Given the levels of power needed to generate that much sound, in the kilowatt range, scaling it up to incapacitate a city would require a stupid huge amount of power, and due to how generating the sound works out, something pretty massive to do the generating as conventional subwoofers are unable to handle that much power

Tuning a nuke to produce infrasound in a controlled manner is something I am pretty sure is not feasible

 

[Aluma]

Thank you very much for the reply!
...and I ran out of ideas again >.>