Plausibility Check: Could Llamas, alpachas orgreater rheas survive in the Caribean?

[mightfly]

I want to know if Tainos( the most advanced native people in the Caribbean) had got their hands on Llamas, alpachas or greater rheas ship these animals have been brought back and survive in the the Caribbean?

I am asking because i want to see if i could find a labour animal for the taino civilization to use and what its affects would be?

In the end I may make a ATL out of this.

Thanks

 

[twovultures]

Llamas and alpacas will not survive in the Caribbean. It's too hot for them, and they would die of heatstroke even if they were put under no physical strain whatsoever.

Rheas seem to be able to take heat, but also seem to prefer pretty dy environments compared to the Caribbean

I think something that's much more significant than getting these animals is having the ability to get them. If the Tainos could boat/portage to the Andes and the southern cone, that would take massive technological changes as seen in Hnau's Bronze Age New World. Really, I don't see why they'd want beasts of burden in this scenario-they can farm fine with hoes, and living on islands water-based transport is more useful and more efficient for transporting goods.

 

[mightfly]

It seems cuba does have some mountain ranges although not as tall as the andes perhaps a north american species that could be domesticated would be better suited.

 

[DValdron]

Rheas at best go up to 90 pounds. I don't think that they'd carry a pack more than 15 or 20 pounds at best. And I don't think that they'd be much good for dragging a sled, a travois or a plow. Just not enough horsepower, no real traction as a two footer, and a lot of small animals to wrangle. Tough. Tough. Tough.

Also, these birds seem to be in the lower parts of South America, nowhere near even the equator mostly.

Honestly, if anyone wants to do a bird labour civilization, Southern Africa is the best bet.

 

[mightfly]

the taino seem to have have the best chance for a divergence point in the americans as if they had a labor domesticate i suspect they would have spread it to both the north and south continents and would have been able to build an architectural complex to serve a centralizing influence. From such a location a centralized authority would have likely arose as it become the trading center. Trading would have lead to a spread of their technology, art and culture to further people who would replicate the complex creating rivals for the new rising state. The Caribbean might have then become very similar to the Mediterranean.

 

[mightfly]

Honestly, if anyone wants to do a bird labour civilization, Southern Africa is the best bet.

Actually i am currently doing such a bird labor civilization in another thread already. I am using emus in Australia a slightly larger ratite native there.

I sorry i am not sure how to post thread links but here's the name.

The Flightless Empire.

I was very inspired by Jared's "land of red and gold" but felt he didn't give emus enough exploitation.

 

[twovultures]

I think you're right that the Tainos are beautifully located to transform both North and South America. However, I don't think that they need a labor domesticate to do that-just a slight push, perhaps a butterfly of some new plant or animal or even just a cultural divergence could allow them to become middlemen in trade between Central, North and South America.

From there, the Taino can change the people they come into contact with for the better by introducing them to new goods and ideas. They don't need to act as a 'centralizing influence', though. The Native Civilizations had examples of that without any alt-Taino to guide them. A cross-island empire is an interesting and I think not very well explored idea, but it wouldn't be the greatest potential contribution made by the alt-Taino.

 

[mightfly]

When it comes to plants and crops the Taino were pretty well off having several prime domesticates farmed by their civilization and the taino are believed to have frequented both florida and the northeastern coast of south america having several of their plants be of south american origin. the yucca, beans, and corn, cassava, and sweet potato and herbs were part of their agriculture. They fished and hunted the small game in their ranges. they had a prolific island culture and used canoes and nets while navigating the caribbean to florida.

The only downside to their society was a lack of large animals which could have provided labor and a defensible architecture and weapons(having only one war club and an open village structure. the over abundunce of easily domesticatable plants with fish, small game and a temporate climate that didn't require clothing along with a lack of rival cultures are what likely lead to their lack of defensive and offensive technology. This allowed for the neighboring caribs to slowly over take the taino until spanish arrival.
Who then preceded to destroy both peoples.

 

[mightfly]

I have heard of a another potential domesticate but i can't find any information on its domesticatibility. The Tapir is the largest of the animals of south america and one species the Beard's tapir is a range stretches up central america. i have wondered how native peoples of these regions interacted with the tapir but they seem pretty vicious.

I doubt tapirs could be used as domesticates but i know little about them.

 

[twovultures]

This has been discussed before. Here are some threads:

Cool Potential Domestications

Megafauna Working Group

Tame the Bison

 

[othyrsyde]

There were already complex societies with divisions of labor and classes in what would become the southeast of the US. Much of the Taino's development came from trading with Mayans, so they could grow to become a go-between for trade between the nations of the southeast and Meso-America.

 

[The Kiat]

I think the Indians of the islands might view Rhea more as food than as beast of burden.

 

[mightfly]

i agree the rhea would be used more for meat and eggs kind of like a turkey but i wonder if they can be breed for size like many mammal domesticates such as dogs?

If they could be breed for bulk then a larger, breed/species might have developed through selective breeding which could be used for labor after some time.

 

[mightfly]

This has been discussed before. Here are some threads:

Each of these threads had their own strengths and weaknesses on the topic at hand.

Cool Potential Domestications

I thought this thread was best but it only breifly discussed emus as a potential domesticates and left them out further in having only one short reference. It also didn't consider the impact of who


Megafauna Working Group

While this Thread was well developed it goes beyond the reasonable animals and pushes well into animals who's survival would have produce far too many butterflies across history changing all societies and possibly humanity from the very begining. i rarely go beyond a certain level of realism with my concepts of domestication. Often i just look for missed opportunities that human behavior could impact.

Tame the Bison
This was some what more my style of a thread but it was too focused on one topic and became alittle too reaching with the concept within a narrow scope. I kept wondering as i read if anyone would mention the impact of bison domestication on societies who trade with or have the potential to meet the caribbean cultures. i was saddly disappointed.

I wish i had been around during the most heated parts of these debates. so i could have brought up these issues but will be happy to discuss them on future forums and in PMs.