Plausibility Check - Catholic Russian state/nationality?

How feasible is it that the Poles, during the Time of Troubles, slice off a part of NW Russia (say from around Smolensk north to the Baltic) that becomes an independent puppet state which gradually converts to Catholicism? Presumably the Russians would grab it back as soon as they were strong enough, but could this Catholic-Russian people (Chernyarussians, perhaps) survive to this day? Marginally possible or ASB? What do you, the readers at home, think?

Something like this, maybe:

Chernyarus.png
 
Last edited:
Well, Catholic Lithuania was quite agressive at this time, so it could be possible. Even easier if we push this back a bit to when Russia was still disunited.
 
Have a pod much further. Effectivly in otl 8-11 centuries the Byzantines were faced with a choice either convert mazovia to Christianity or the Slavs they chose slavs in this tl if they choose mazovia, expect orthodox hungary, Croatia, Poland, and Lithuania and a Christian russia.;)
 
Have a pod much further. Effectivly in otl 8-11 centuries the Byzantines were faced with a choice either convert mazovia to Christianity or the Slavs they chose slavs in this tl if they choose mazovia, expect orthodox hungary, Croatia, Poland, and Lithuania and a Christian russia.;)

...

Greek-rite Orthodoxy is Christian. What the f--k. :eek:

Also, there's no reason that efforts to convert Hungary etc. mean Russia can't convert.
 
...

Greek-rite Orthodoxy is Christian. What the f--k. :eek:

Also, there's no reason that efforts to convert Hungary etc. mean Russia can't convert.

Hey sorry I meant Orthodox christians a blunder on my part, but this is perfectly plausable in otl the Mazovians almost converted. about russia not becoming orthodox that is to satisfy this POD
 
Hey sorry I meant Orthodox christians a blunder on my part, but this is perfectly plausable in otl the Mazovians almost converted.

No worries.

I agree that its plausible for there to be Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism in eastern European countries that OTL went Catholic, but I think it makes it more likely for Russia to convert, not less.
 
Last edited:
Have a pod much further. Effectivly in otl 8-11 centuries the Byzantines were faced with a choice either convert mazovia to Christianity or the Slavs they chose slavs in this tl if they choose mazovia, expect orthodox hungary, Croatia, Poland, and Lithuania and a Christian russia.;)

You mean (Great) Moravia, right? (which was Slavic as well, btw)
 
How feasible is it that the Poles, during the Time of Troubles, slice off a part of NW Russia (say from around Smolensk north to the Baltic) that becomes an independent puppet state which gradually converts to Catholicism? Presumably the Russians would grab it back as soon as they were strong enough, but could this Catholic-Russian people (Chernyarussians, perhaps) survive to this day? Marginally possible or ASB? What do you, the readers at home, think?

I think it is very possible, if the form of Catholicism presented was eastern rite Catholicism. Eastern rite Catholicism would allow the Russians in the area to keep their culture and worship traditions while becoming a near autonomous part of the Catholic church under the leadership of the Pope. The outward differences between some eastern rite Catholic churches and Orthodox churches are so small that the nominaly interested cannot tell the two apart.

Historically, there are millions of eastern rite Catholics in Ukraine and Ruthenian lands. They also exist in Rumania, Russia and Bulgaria (though in far smaller numbers). Ironically, though some might have been pressured into joining the Catholic church, eastern rite Catholics have also fervently resisted later orthodox pressure that they leave the Catholic church.
 
Last edited:
I think it is very possible, if the form of Catholicism presented was eastern rite Catholicism. Eastern rite Catholicism would allow the Russians in the area to keep their culture and worship traditions while becoming a near autonomous part of the Catholic church under the leadership of the Pope. The outward differences between some eastern rite Catholic churches and Orthodox churches are so small that the nominaly interested cannot tell the two apart.

Historically, there are millions of eastern rite Catholics in Ukraine and Ruthenian lands. They also exist in Rumania, Russia and Bulgaria (though in far smaller numbers). Ironically, though some might have been pressured into joining the Catholic church, eastern rite Catholics have also fervently resisted later orthodox pressure that they leave the Catholic church.

All true, although I can see there being some intense pressure for the Russo-Catholics to convert to Orthodoxy, esp. in the late imperial and Communist periods. (Assuming the butterflies don't eliminate the latter)

I'll have to play around with the idea a bit, see what develops.
 
All true, although I can see there being some intense pressure for the Russo-Catholics to convert to Orthodoxy, esp. in the late imperial and Communist periods. (Assuming the butterflies don't eliminate the latter)

I'll have to play around with the idea a bit, see what develops.
As a side note, mass local conversion from Orthodox to Eastern rite Catholicism would be far more successful in Belorussia. Belorussia has had a more western orientation and political disputes with Russia would facilitate conversion efforts.

The more the conversion territory involved the Russian religious and cultural heartland, the less pecentage would convert. Even in the heartland, however, I think a conversion campaign including charismatic catholic priests, social pressure and economic carrots / sticks could result in in a substantial minority going eastern rite catholic.
 
Last edited:
Thing is, much of Belarus and western Ukraine was converted to eastern-rite Catholicism, but gradually converted back again after the partitions as the tsar's started to rely on Orthodoxy as an agent of their regime. By the 1870s, Greek Catholicism inside the Russian Empire was tiny; those millions of Ukrainians live in Galicia, mainly, where the church became first good buddies with the Hapsburgs and latterly a national institution (in fact the Roman Catholic Poles, after WW1, found Greek Catholic Galicians much more intractable than Orthodox Volhynians).

My rough sketch would be something like kneecap Muscovy starting in the 1500 or 1600 hundreds; the PLC keeps Smolensk and doesn't become quite such a mess; continue to kneecap Muscovy; eventually Poland breaks up in the *age of nationalism and you end up with a great big East Slavic Eastern Catholic state including Smolensk, Belarus, and much of Ukraine.

To the above: I don't really follow. What period are you talking about? There's been an actually extant Belarussian political entity able to have disputes with Russia since, ah, 1991. Belarus (and Ukraine) were deliberately converted to Greek Catholicism by government policy at one point, and as a matter of fact they didn't take it too well at first.
 
Last edited:
To the above: I don't really follow. What period are you talking about? There's been an actually extant Belarussian political entity able to have disputes with Russia since, ah, 1991. Belarus (and Ukraine) were deliberately converted to Greek Catholicism by government policy at one point, and as a matter of fact they didn't take it too well at first.
I had thought that Russia imposed Russian rule, the cyrillic alphabet and a more Russified culture in Belorussia. Know I see it was the Poles who ordered the change to the latin alphabet and that the transfer of the territory to the Russian empire might not of invovled alot of cultural changes.
 
I had thought that Russia imposed Russian rule, the cyrillic alphabet and a more Russified culture in Belorussia. Know I see it was the Poles who ordered the change to the latin alphabet and that the transfer of the territory to the Russian empire might not of invovled alot of cultural changes.

When the Russians annexed Belarus in the partitions they hardly changed anything. Those provinces didn't get zemstva until 1911, partly because the landowners continued to be overwhelmingly Catholic, hence Polish.

Insofar as they've written in languages that aren't Latin or Polish, the Belarussians have always used Cyrillic.
 
Top