Gents,
Every time someone squeals about how "harsh" the Treaty of Versailles was to Germany and how it was a little more than a "dictat" by the victorious Entente, I remember the Treaty of Brest Litovsk and laugh laugh laugh...
Follow that link and take a good hard look at the kind of "peace" Wilhelmine Germany made when they had the whip hand.
You want a "good" treaty of Versailles? Harsh, lenient, or middling, it doesn't matter what you dictate or negotiate with Germany, unless you put Entente boots on the ground in Germany and enforce the treaty for the period in question Germany will still grouse about how it's somehow "unfair".
The real problem with Versailles was that Germany forgot she actually lost the war and the other powers didn't bother reminding her of that fact.
Bill
I agree. The best way to prevent another World War would have been for the Entente (Britain, France, USA, Belgium, ok maybe Italy too) to basically do what the Allies did in 1945-1949, i.e. occupying Germany and dividing it and Berlin into occupation zones ("You are now leaving the U.S. zone" etc.).
But apparently that kind of behaviour wasn't "civilized" or something back in 1918-19.
Gents,
You want a "good" treaty of Versailles? Harsh, lenient, or middling, it doesn't matter what you dictate or negotiate with Germany, unless you put Entente boots on the ground in Germany and enforce the treaty for the period in question Germany will still grouse about how it's somehow "unfair".
Gents,
Every time someone squeals about how "harsh" the Treaty of Versailles was to Germany and how it was a little more than a "dictat" by the victorious Entente, I remember the Treaty of Brest Litovsk and laugh laugh laugh...
Follow that link and take a good hard look at the kind of "peace" Wilhelmine Germany made when they had the whip hand.
You want a "good" treaty of Versailles? Harsh, lenient, or middling, it doesn't matter what you dictate or negotiate with Germany, unless you put Entente boots on the ground in Germany and enforce the treaty for the period in question Germany will still grouse about how it's somehow "unfair".
The real problem with Versailles was that Germany forgot she actually lost the war and the other powers didn't bother reminding her of that fact.
Bill
On November 11, 1918, the Landtag of Alsace-Lorraine, the freely and secretly elected parliament, proclaimed independence. Thus I'm not sure that France, which occupied A-L in the following days, would ever agree to a plebiscite in A-L.
(They didn't even go for one in 1871 - because that would have raised the question of a plebiscite in Nizza and Savoy, which France had just appropriated from Italy, as well.)
The problem with the ToV was Wilson. The Germans, when asking for an armistice, were under the impression they would get a Wilsonian 14-Points peace. When they finally realised that it would be a Clemenceau peace it was already too late to resume hostilities.
Exactly, a major part of this was the fact that the only troops that marched down the Unter den Linden with colours flying were German. Marching an Allied army down there with not just British and French troops, but all the colonial and Dominion forces represented, Italian, Serbian, US, Portugese, even Japanese would have said to the Germans "see, you took on the world and got your arses kicked, deal with it".
The problem with the ToV was it was neither fish nor fowl. Either forgive and forget, aside from France getting back A/L (not going to happen), or hammer it home, that way the German people understand that they really, truly lost.
I dissent.
Treating Germany as france was treated in the Vienna Conference 1815 (no territorial loss respect to pre-war boundaries, limited sanctions) would have turned Germany in a protector of the status quo instead of having turned it in a perturbator.
Regarding Great War, it was certainly a very trumatic affaire, but was it really worse than the Napoleonic wars?
(I'm speaking of the psycological impact, of course, not of the actual loss of life).
Reading some 1813 British treaty about Napoleon, I found it remarky similar to 1940 depictions of Hitler
I like this idea. Perhaps the war guilt could be placed on the back of the regime rather than on the nation as a whole. Instead of territorial changes there could be constitutional ones. e.g. The empire maintained but the Kaiser forced to abdicate, a new constitution that makes the chancellor dependent on the legislature, the handing over of a few military leaders for trial (regarding Belgium etc.)
Germany will at least have to give up Alsace-Lorraine (perhaps Northern Schleswig?) and a part of or all their colonies.
Don't get too lenient. It would not happen.
In Vienna it DID happen. (And Napoleon was not exactly loved by the winners)
And France was turned in a factor of stability in Europe instead of being a monster willing to eat weaker nations as it was depicted before (and as it actually was, at a certain degree )
Except for the period 1848 to 1870 when those frog-eating ninnies put another Bonaparte in charge, spent a decade or two disturbing the peace (sometimes with British collaboration, I'm ashamed to say), and finally brought another foreign army down to visit Paris. Thankfully, the French people got the message, and since 1871 have stuck to mostly very dull and unadventurous Republics - far better for public health.
I was thinking the Kaiser abdicates in favor of another Hohenzollern. The new constitution would give the succeeding Kaisers about as much political power as the British monarch uses by convention (though QEII's actual powers are rather impressive, that's the subject for another WI). I think dividing Prussia into several Lander would also help the nation's stability.
By the summer and fall of 1918 both Czech and Polish governments were reckognised as members of Entente.This might be more acceptable for Germany, but this will lead to more disappointed Poles.
I suggest that its conditions are not satisfied, and the answer to original question is that such arrangment is not possible.Was it actually possible to have a treaty of Versailles with a POD after Nov,11,1918 that prevents WWII, satisfy the victors, and at least be somewhat acceptable to the defeated?