Plausibility Check: A German Purchase of Either Luxembourg or Suwalki Governorate?

CaliGuy

Banned
Would it have been realistic for Germany--had the political will to do this actually existed in Germany, that is--to successfully purchase Luxembourg and/or the Suwalki Governorate in the late 19th century?

For the record, the logic behind such of these purchases would be this:

-Luxembourg is ethically German and thus properly belongs in Germany; plus, the Dutch King (who controlled Luxembourg until 1890) was already willing to sell Luxembourg to France back in 1867 before Prussia objected.

-The Suwalki Governorate is a natural extension of East Prussia and annexing it would allow Germany to have a more defensible border in the East in the event of a future war with Russia.

Anyway, any thoughts on this?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, for the record, such purchase attempts--even if unsuccessful--could certainly give Germany's leadership greater popularity at home (especially among German nationalists).
 
Attempting it might be considered, assuming someone in the Wilhelmstraße was feeling crazy enough to try. There is no doubt it would have been a good move, in the territorial sense.

Succeeding, on the other hand, is very unlikely. Buying Luxembourg would be an almost unprecedented abdication of sovereign power. The only person who could 'sell' it (this being a very questionable word in this context) is the reigning monarch. I'm not sure when a European monarch last sold his own country and came away looking good.
Russia might be more willing to sell Suwalki, but IMO only minimally so. These territories have historical significance to the Romanovs. they were won from the Swedes in the war that forged their nation into a European power. It's not like Alaska or Western Turkestan. Selling off land so close to the capital and so steeped in history would be an acute humiliation.

US history is not a good paradigm for other parts of the world because it is - yes - exceptional. The USA grew by (often forced) purchases because the European powers surrounding it considered the land they sold colonial. You could sell or swap colonies with no loss of face provided the bargain was good enough, but you could not sell sovereign territory. Mexico was not exactly happy to do so, for one thing.
 
Their best chance to get Luxembourg is prior to unification but afterwards it's hard to see, largely because a unified Germany purchasing territory, in particular tactically significant territory, would be too threatening to France, the UK, and maybe even Austria-Hungary.

Suwalki would be nice to have but outside of war I don't see Russia ceding it, for the same reasons carlton_bach described. Too close to home, quite symbolic.
 
Depends on when you are talking about but a German purchase of Luxembourg in the immediate wake of the 1870 war with France could have takenot care of a lot of the objections (what ishe one more territory), Germany had the money (from the French indemnity 5 billion franc, Luxemburg price in 1867 was approximately 11 million Francs.

Non German purchases is a good thing to do with monies from the indemnity as it may take the edge of the economic issues in Germany (inflation and stock crash) in 1873 and 1874.
 
-The Suwalki Governorate is a natural extension of East Prussia and annexing it would allow Germany to have a more defensible border in the East in the event of a future war with Russia.
Without acquiring Congress Poland alongside Suwalki (impossible), the purchased territory would form a huge salient in the event of a future war with Russia, making it a hindrance rather than a boon.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Attempting it might be considered, assuming someone in the Wilhelmstraße was feeling crazy enough to try. There is no doubt it would have been a good move, in the territorial sense.

OK.

Succeeding, on the other hand, is very unlikely. Buying Luxembourg would be an almost unprecedented abdication of sovereign power. The only person who could 'sell' it (this being a very questionable word in this context) is the reigning monarch. I'm not sure when a European monarch last sold his own country and came away looking good.

The Dutch King (who controlled Luxembourg until 1890) did try selling Luxembourg to France in 1867, though; indeed, this deal was blocked due to Prussian objections.

Russia might be more willing to sell Suwalki, but IMO only minimally so. These territories have historical significance to the Romanovs. they were won from the Swedes in the war that forged their nation into a European power. It's not like Alaska or Western Turkestan. Selling off land so close to the capital and so steeped in history would be an acute humiliation.

I would like to point out that Suwalki was only Russian for less than a century by this point in time, though; indeed, Russia even previously allowed Prussia to annex Suwalki back during the Partitions of Poland in the 1790s!

US history is not a good paradigm for other parts of the world because it is - yes - exceptional. The USA grew by (often forced) purchases because the European powers surrounding it considered the land they sold colonial. You could sell or swap colonies with no loss of face provided the bargain was good enough, but you could not sell sovereign territory. Mexico was not exactly happy to do so, for one thing.

And yet the Dutch King was willing to sell Luxembourg in 1867; plus, Piedmont-Sardinia transferred both Nice and Savoy to France in 1860.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Without acquiring Congress Poland alongside Suwalki (impossible), the purchased territory would form a huge salient in the event of a future war with Russia, making it a hindrance rather than a boon.
Actually, it is doubtful that annexing Suwalki would create a more problematic salient than the one which already existed with East Prussia; if anything, annexing Suwalki would create a more defensible eastern border for East Prussia due to the Neman River. :)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Their best chance to get Luxembourg is prior to unification but afterwards it's hard to see, largely because a unified Germany purchasing territory, in particular tactically significant territory, would be too threatening to France, the UK, and maybe even Austria-Hungary.

How tactically significant was Luxembourg in reality, though?

Suwalki would be nice to have but outside of war I don't see Russia ceding it, for the same reasons carlton_bach described. Too close to home, quite symbolic.

Suwalki was Russian for less than a century by this point in time, though; plus, Russia previously agreed to a Prussian annexation of Suwalki in the 1790s!
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Depends on when you are talking about but a German purchase of Luxembourg in the immediate wake of the 1870 war with France could have takenot care of a lot of the objections (what ishe one more territory), Germany had the money (from the French indemnity 5 billion franc, Luxemburg price in 1867 was approximately 11 million Francs.

OK; understood.

Non German purchases is a good thing to do with monies from the indemnity as it may take the edge of the economic issues in Germany (inflation and stock crash) in 1873 and 1874.

To clarify--you're suggesting that a German purchase of Luxembourg would have helped Germany's leadership by temporarily distracting the German people from economic issues, correct?

Also, what about the Suwalki Governorate?
 
The inflation and stock market boom in Germany in 72-73 was driven by having more money circulating in the economy without an increase of goods in the economy. The stock market crash of late 73-74 came because the flow of additional money stopped.

So in short the extra money in the economy caused a boom and bust effect.

If the government spent this money outside Germany (by buying luxemburg) it would reduce the effect that it had on the German economy and take the edge off the boom and bust that occured.

Well buying Suwalki would be a good thing for Germany for an improved border and getting the money out of the economy (as above) however I am tend to assume that great powers wouldn't sell land.
 
How tactically significant was Luxembourg in reality, though?

Suwalki was Russian for less than a century by this point in time, though; plus, Russia previously agreed to a Prussian annexation of Suwalki in the 1790s!

Luxembourg fortress was one of the most advanced of its kind, and during the 19th century one of the conditions Prussia suggested for that French purchase of Luxembourg mentioned earlier was the demolishing of the fortress.

And there's a difference between Russia agreeing that Prussia annexes Suwalki in the 1790s and roughly 100 years later. Relations between the two countries were vastly different back then and Prussia was far less powerful, too. And Suwalki in Prussian hands would have endangered Warsaw, which after the Polish partitions was part of Prussia after all and thus not really interesting for Russia.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Luxembourg fortress was one of the most advanced of its kind, and during the 19th century one of the conditions Prussia suggested for that French purchase of Luxembourg mentioned earlier was the demolishing of the fortress.

Can't Germany offer to purchase Luxembourg with this fortress being demolished beforehand (in order to acquire the consent of the other Great Powers), though?

And there's a difference between Russia agreeing that Prussia annexes Suwalki in the 1790s and roughly 100 years later. Relations between the two countries were vastly different back then and Prussia was far less powerful, too.

Weren't German-Russian relations pretty good until the 1890s or even later than that, though?

And Suwalki in Prussian hands would have endangered Warsaw, which after the Polish partitions was part of Prussia after all and thus not really interesting for Russia.

Looking at this map, though, it is highly questionable--indeed, perhaps highly doubtful--that having Germany annex Sulwaki would threaten Warsaw:

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist151/maps_for_quizI/Europe 1900 Large.PNG

Europe%201900%20Large.PNG
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Looking at the map above, Suwalki's main purpose/use would be as a defensive shield/cushion for East Prussia; indeed, both Warsaw and Russian Poland would probably remain as secure as they previously were.
 
Looking at the map above, Suwalki's main purpose/use would be as a defensive shield/cushion for East Prussia; indeed, both Warsaw and Russian Poland would probably remain as secure as they previously were.
Main export path for Warsaw was the train to the Baltic (Riga) which went through Suwalki.

Suwalki is a great position to match south (into Grodno) with the river on your flank and boats for supply. If there is a Prussia Austria alliance you can be met by Austrian troops marching north from Galicia.
 
As someone else said, European land is not American land. Most Europeans could not care less about what a bunch of hillbillies in a city like New Orleans were doin (as they were seen in the day), but they would never think of trying to sell an actual "core," for lack of a better word. France would have even been hesitant to sell Algeria until the dire end.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
As someone else said, European land is not American land. Most Europeans could not care less about what a bunch of hillbillies in a city like New Orleans were doin (as they were seen in the day), but they would never think of trying to sell an actual "core," for lack of a better word. France would have even been hesitant to sell Algeria until the dire end.
And yet the Dutch King was willing to sell Luxembourg in the 1860s; plus, Piedmont-Sardinia transferred both Nice and Savoy to France in 1860.
 
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