Plausibe Different Nation-States

[Jimbrock]

So, what plausible nation-states could have formed with a PoD, say, at the beginning of the Congress of Vienna? No major deviations from Europe's OTL ethnic map at that time, please, but it will be interesting to see what others could have arisen...
And thought modern states arriving earlier would work, what we're looking for here is completely different nation states.

 

[Lord Insane]

You might have been able to pull off Scandinavia being seen as a nation if the nationalist movement that existed had succeeded in unifying the three countries with a POD as late as that, but I suspect you'd might need a POD at least six years earlier for that to be reasonable.

 

[Jimbrock]

You might have been able to pull off Scandinavia being seen as a nation if the nationalist movement that existed had succeeded in unifying the three countries with a POD as late as that, but I suspect you'd might need a POD at least six years earlier for that to be reasonable.

Yes, I had thought about that, and even thought up a sort of PoD and minitimeline in my head (and I know where that idea came from...).
In that same area, might we have a Sapmi state or an Urgic Union? We might have to move back the PoD, though...

 

[Lord Insane]

Yes, I had thought about that, and even thought up a sort of PoD and minitimeline in my head (and I know where that idea came from...).
In that same area, might we have a Sapmi state or an Urgic Union? We might have to move back the PoD, though...

A Sapmi state has problems with feasability, I suspect- unless the POD-limit is brought a number of centuries back, perhaps. Urgic Union... IIRC, the idea was raised in the Interwar period, but how to pull it off...

 

[Tyr]

Poland was seriously considered as a 'independant' state- a Russian vassal more often than not.

The trouble with Vienna is it was more about the survivors taking as much as they could then new states being made.


Corsica could happen I suppose, it wasn't so long ago subsumed into France.
A few other chunks could perhaps be torn from France too with a harsh treaty- maybe Burgundy revived or some small Occitania or Brittany at a stretch.
I doubt the long term survival of these but...meh

Italy is open to a lot of change I guess.

Maybe you could pull off some sort of Saxon/Frisian land on the fringes of Germany?

 

[Jimbrock]

Maybe Unions of similar nations is the way to go here. A union between Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Czechozlovakia through the Czech Corridor, maybe? Or a Slavic Superstate with Poland and the Baltics included too? Ukraine and Belarus? How far can this go witout being Russian dominated?
In this case, I pity Hungary and Romania.

 

[Lord Insane]

The Baltics aren't Slavic.

Getting Bulgaria as part of a Yugoslavia... hm, well, they are South Slavs. It might be possible to make it happen, or even have Bulgaria make it happen.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

OTL's Finland minus Laps plus Estonia under the name Finland

Independant Transylvania, separate from Rumania.

 

[Mirza Khan]

Lots of possibilities here. The unifications of Italy or Germany could not go through, leaving Bavaria, Mecklenburg, Hannover, Tuscany, Two Sicilies, etc. as independent countries. Or Spain could undergo a Balkanization of some sort (probably would take some imagination to do it with a POD after the Congress of Vienna, but as the place has four or five (at least) minority languages, its always within the realm of possibility).

After that, it starts to get harder. Surviving Brittany, surviving independent Provence, and some sort of Baltic-Prussian (not Germanic) nation on the north coast of Poland are all intersting, but probably require a POD before 1815.

 

[Valdemar II]

Lots of possibilities here. The unifications of Italy or Germany could not go through, leaving Bavaria, Mecklenburg, Hannover, Tuscany, Two Sicilies, etc. as independent countries. Or Spain could undergo a Balkanization of some sort (probably would take some imagination to do it with a POD after the Congress of Vienna, but as the place has four or five (at least) minority languages, its always within the realm of possibility).

Italy is relative easy to split up in several nations, modern Italian was only created in the 19th century. While German unification could be avoided, the modern German nation was already going strong in 1815, and I see little opputinty to for new nations being split of the German identity, the only two which split off did so because the enourmous loss of German prestige after the World Wars.

After that, it starts to get harder. Surviving Brittany, surviving independent Provence, and some sort of Baltic-Prussian (not Germanic) nation on the north coast of Poland are all intersting, but probably require a POD before 1815.

Yes especially the Baltic-Prussian nation, because the last native speaker had been dead for 50 years (of course we could see a cultural awakening, but it would be as artificial as Cornwallish). Beside that you could argue, that there already existed a Bretagne nation, they have a nation awareness away from French, of course it's a quesrion if it will survive the next century.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Independant Transylvania, separate from Rumania

i always thought that would be a cool nation, but it would have to be independent long before the second world war and in that way, stay a germanic culture.

 

[Wolfpaw]

Perhaps Brittany could be made a sort of British protectorate along the lines of Congress Poland (only, you know, without the Tsarist tyranny.)

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

i always thought that would be a cool nation, but it would have to be independent long before the second world war and in that way, stay a germanic culture.

Or rather a German-Romanian mixed culture.


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A very interesting effect would be not one Germany, neither many, but a large North Germany as a nation state (perhaps including the Netherlands and Flanders) and an large South German nation state including Austria, but without Hungary.

But that requires a lot more and earlier divergence ...

 

[Falastur]

Perhaps Brittany could be made a sort of British protectorate along the lines of Congress Poland (only, you know, without the Tsarist tyranny.)

Possible, though one of the fundamental tenets of the Congress of Vienna was that they promised to respect French territorial integrity. They had to be seen to be punishing Napoleonic France, not France proper. If we start divvying up parts of France, what you get is a post-Versailles syndrome where the French feel like a wronged party, and it's a matter of time until another pretender to the throne appears, instills a tyranny government and pursues another war against Europe to "restore French pride".

 

[Jaded_Railman]

Pretty much all the work I have done at preserving Byzantium has been aimed at creating a new nation-state in the vein of France, Spain, or Britain that views itself as Roman.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Getting Bulgaria as part of a Yugoslavia... hm, well, they are South Slavs. It might be possible to make it happen, or even have Bulgaria make it happen.

It nearly did. The treaty was being finalised when the Tito-Stalin split occured.

 

[Wolfpaw]

Possible, though one of the fundamental tenets of the Congress of Vienna was that they promised to respect French territorial integrity. They had to be seen to be punishing Napoleonic France, not France proper. If we start divvying up parts of France, what you get is a post-Versailles syndrome where the French feel like a wronged party, and it's a matter of time until another pretender to the throne appears, instills a tyranny government and pursues another war against Europe to "restore French pride".

All very true/likely. Just thought I'd take a stab at justifying some other people's ideas.

Hrmm. Perhaps the Illyrian provinces France annexed could be made into a sort of Croat nation-state. Granted, Austria would probably put up a fight over that, but perhaps if you put it under Savoyard protection or somehow accomodated Vienna; an earlier (and rather different) dual monarchy, perhaps? Or maybe have it under a sort of Papal or Vatican-sanctioned authority so the Austrians wouldn't be able to grab it without infuriating the Pontiff.

Sort of along the same vein (albeit much later) perhaps A-H survives long enough to reform itself into a Trial Monarchy (or perhaps Triune or Triple, because Trial sounds a bit silly) with an Empire of Austria, a Kingdom of Hungary, and a Kingdom of Dalmatia (dominated by Croats but ultimately designed to keep the Empire's pesky Southern Slavs in check.)

 

[Andrelvis]

I doubt that could be possible, specially since Austria had one of the greatest statesmen of Europe's skills at it's disposal, Metternich, and since without the "Illyrian provinces" Austria would have no access to the sea.

 

[Wolfpaw]

I doubt that could be possible, specially since Austria had one of the greatest statesmen of Europe's skills at it's disposal, Metternich, and since without the "Illyrian provinces" Austria would have no access to the sea.

I agree. Just throwing ideas out there; there're not a whole lot of plausible candidates, after all.

Maybe kill off Metternich or maybe just reduce the Illyrian provinces' territories a bit to give Austria access to the sea. It'd be almost ASB difficult, but it could just happen if everything (and I mean everything) went perfectly.

 

[Andrelvis]

Possibly. I think the greatest possibility this proposition has of occurring is if Austria doesn't declare war on Napoleon until too late or not at all, making it be seen in the same light as Saxony did.