Plausability check - T34 as Wallied tank

The prop shaft went directly from the center of the radial engine to the gearbox, a legacy from M3 medium tank. The diamenter of the 'naked' R-975 was almost 120 cm, half of that meant that prop shaft needs to start some 60 cm above the bottom of the tank. (picture) You can note that radial was slanted.
The M18 got around that by using the intermediate gearbox, that lowered the 'start' of the prop shaft by some 40-50 cm. Radial was vertically oriented here. (picture)
 
The OP was, but we'd already answered his question. So we let ourselves kinda get sidetracked by a conversation about the T-34s general reputation. Or at least that's my impression on how things drifted.



Yeah, and I addressed that:



(Emphasis added)

That said, I can't find a reference to the Sherman participating in any of the big Soviet operations until Kursk, so they seem to have largely been relegated to secondary units during that period due to inadequate numbers or something. The crews generally liked them, because they were more comfortable, but the commanders had more mixed feelings about them, disliking their narrower tracks, high profile, and unsloped side armor. I've never seen anything to suggest that Soviet formations outfitted with Shermans fared better then those outfitted with T-34s, but then I've never seen anything to suggest they fared worse either. That would suggest that Soviet tank survivability owed more to the general conditions of the Red Army on the Eastern Front then any particular tank the Soviets were using, which is the conclusion the Soviets also seem to have made when it came to optimizing the T-34 for mass production.

Oddly The Red Army of Workers and Peasants liked the British Valentine.
And it was the only Western Tank that the Soviet High Command asked for more of, keeping it in production until the end of the war. Almost the entire Canadian run ended up in Russia. Despite it being phased out and replaced in Western formations by 1944 with Churchills.
 
And it was the only Western Tank that the Soviet High Command asked for more of, keeping it in production until the end of the war.

They did ask for more Shermans. They didn't care for the build quality/reliability of most UK made armor, but liked Valentines, as the LL ones were made in Canada.
 
The Valentines were largely (not entirely, but largely) used in second-line units after 1942 though. Which makes sense, as such follow-on forces generally didn't have much to do aside from mopping up straggling German infantry and one doesn't need particularly good tanks for that.
 
The Valentines were largely (not entirely, but largely) used in second-line units after 1942 though. Which makes sense, as such follow-on forces generally didn't have much to do aside from mopping up straggling German infantry and one doesn't need particularly good tanks for that.
I like the Aussie Valentines used in the Pacific.

LFB03.jpg


Too bad they weren't available in Malaya.
 
I like the Aussie Valentines used in the Pacific.

LFB03.jpg


Too bad they weren't available in Malaya.


Sorry this is off-topic (its still tanky):

General Wavell, C-in-C India, is on record as saying at the start of the Japanese War there was not a single modern tank in India that could have helped Malaya. Separately it is well known that an attempt to get some Vickers Light Tanks from Mid East Command was stopped.

So Malaya Command was doomed to fall before a Japanese Tank Blitzkrieg, because among other things, it had no shell-firing tanks and Mid-East Command would not give any out of its 800+; Nor would Churchill send any from the Home Command.


General Wavell was either misled or lied: I found the following regarding India Command when I was writing my Civ-2 Game Malaya 1941:

Tank Stocks Held BY INDIA COMMAND as of 1st November 1941 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1st/251st (IA) Armd Bde
3x? Handful of Grants Apr 41
Probyn's Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41
Royal Deccan Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41

2nd/252nd (IA) Armd Bde
Hodson’s Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41
Scinde Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41

50th (IA) Tank Bde
146th Armd Regt RAC 3x Valentines Nov 1941

In October 1942 had been equipped with Valentines:
  • Armoured Car Tp - Indian Pattern Carriers.
  • 6x Universal Carriers were added as part of the mortar troop
  • (Early 1943 - Part of ‘B’ Squadron trained with DD Valentines)
_______________________________________________________________________

Suggested ORBAT of Grant Force - Possible Ad-hoc Armoured Reinforcement
from India Command to Malaya Command 1941

Grant-Force is formed around 251st (IA) Armd Bde.
  • Heavy Tank Sqn (Grants & Valentines)
  • Light Armd Sqn (Stuart)
  • Light Armd Sqn (Indian pattern tanks)
  • Armd Car Sqn (Indian pattern armd cars)
  • Carrier Platoon (Indian pattern Carriers)
  • Inf Bn MT (146 Armd Regt (RAC) - fomerly 9th Bn Duke of Wellington's Regt)
  • 3" TM Troop (Indian pattern Carriers)

There two possible approaches to introducing Grant Force into the game.

Have them shipped over in November, deploy the bulk at Jitra to support the MATADOR offensive and a troop of Stuarts to support LEDGE.

Have them shipped over with Convoy-1 (BM 9A [Bombay - Malaya 9A]) - In January 3 1942, and deploy to the Slim River Posn. Have them destroy the Japanese filleting attack and stabilise the Command posn until the AIF and 7th Armd Bde arrive.

Regards
Stafford1069
 
They did ask for more Shermans. They didn't care for the build quality/reliability of most UK made armor, but liked Valentines, as the LL ones were made in Canada.
Probly because the Sherman was a beast in close quarters and was extremely efficient at killing infantry.
 
Sorry this is off-topic (its still tanky):

General Wavell, C-in-C India, is on record as saying at the start of the Japanese War there was not a single modern tank in India that could have helped Malaya. Separately it is well known that an attempt to get some Vickers Light Tanks from Mid East Command was stopped.

So Malaya Command was doomed to fall before a Japanese Tank Blitzkrieg, because among other things, it had no shell-firing tanks and Mid-East Command would not give any out of its 800+; Nor would Churchill send any from the Home Command.


General Wavell was either misled or lied: I found the following regarding India Command when I was writing my Civ-2 Game Malaya 1941:

Tank Stocks Held BY INDIA COMMAND as of 1st November 1941 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1st/251st (IA) Armd Bde
3x? Handful of Grants Apr 41
Probyn's Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41
Royal Deccan Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41

2nd/252nd (IA) Armd Bde
Hodson’s Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41
Scinde Horse 3x Stuarts Oct 41

50th (IA) Tank Bde
146th Armd Regt RAC 3x Valentines Nov 1941

In October 1942 had been equipped with Valentines:
  • Armoured Car Tp - Indian Pattern Carriers.
  • 6x Universal Carriers were added as part of the mortar troop
  • (Early 1943 - Part of ‘B’ Squadron trained with DD Valentines)
_______________________________________________________________________

Suggested ORBAT of Grant Force - Possible Ad-hoc Armoured Reinforcement
from India Command to Malaya Command 1941

Grant-Force is formed around 251st (IA) Armd Bde.
  • Heavy Tank Sqn (Grants & Valentines)
  • Light Armd Sqn (Stuart)
  • Light Armd Sqn (Indian pattern tanks)
  • Armd Car Sqn (Indian pattern armd cars)
  • Carrier Platoon (Indian pattern Carriers)
  • Inf Bn MT (146 Armd Regt (RAC) - fomerly 9th Bn Duke of Wellington's Regt)
  • 3" TM Troop (Indian pattern Carriers)

There two possible approaches to introducing Grant Force into the game.

Have them shipped over in November, deploy the bulk at Jitra to support the MATADOR offensive and a troop of Stuarts to support LEDGE.

Have them shipped over with Convoy-1 (BM 9A [Bombay - Malaya 9A]) - In January 3 1942, and deploy to the Slim River Posn. Have them destroy the Japanese filleting attack and stabilise the Command posn until the AIF and 7th Armd Bde arrive.

Regards
Stafford1069
i like it.

As an alternative, by Sept 1941 Canada is producing Valentines, all destined for USSR. Good pics and info here http://www.okthepk.ca/dataCprSiding/articles/200909/foto04.htm

Send the first 100 to Vancouver by rail (Canada has a top grade transnational railway and modern port in BC). Starting with these 36 ready to ship in autumn 1941 to USSR.

Canadian+built+Valentine+Tanks


Send the Major General Worthington (promoted to this rank) to command them, along with his Canadian armoured corps troops (and send Brigadeer Lawson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Lawson and the RC Rifles and Winnipeg Grenadiers destined for Hong Kong instead to Malaya with the tanks).

Worthington has been aggressively training his corps and is more than up to the task of combat command in Malaya, and would have worked excellently with the Australians. It's a shame this didn't happen IOTL, as the pieces are all in place, the Soviets didn't need the tanks and the Canucks were idle - it would have been a great moment in joint Anglo-Canadian-Australian and CW history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._F._Worthington

Now, I adhore threadjackers almost as much as I hate the contrarians that litter ATH. As I'm way OT, perhaps I'll start a new thread on this scenario.
 
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