Plausability check, Grand Duchies in the HRE before Tuscany

Okay so sort of posed this question before. That If Charlies V, Holy Roman Emperor had a second surviving son(uh, a legitimate son) and he chose to split the Habsburg lands into three. His Brother getting the Austrian Crown Land and eventually the big crown, while his son Phillipe got the Spanish holdings. While the low counties went to.. uh lets say Prince John.

Now the original question was Could Charlies declare the duchies and counties that made up the Burgundian inheritance a Kingdom. And the resounding answer was no, the Imperial Diet wouldn't stand for it and the only one who is allowed to be a King in the Empire was the Emperor, who was already the King of Germany, King of Italy and the King of Bohemia.

The Second question well could the Burgundian Inheritance be made into an Arch-Duchy. Again the answer was no. As an Arch -duchy was like the Highlander and their could only be one. but the role of an arch duchy would have work well as in the past Austria was made up of many smaller duchies that came an went.

So now here is the purpose of this thread. Can he create a Grand Duchy, specifically use the relatively useless title that was the Duke of Lothier, which he already had and just make it.... Grand. The title existed in the HRE way back to refer to the lands that made up the Duchy or Lower Lotharingia, but over time that duchy like Middle Francia before it continued to fracture into the seventeen provinces. The Duchy of Upper Lotharingia mostly stayed together and got to keep the Lotharingian name, although the it is better known as Lorraine. Now The holy Roman Empire did have a Grand Duchy a couple of years after Charles V's death, rewarded to Cosimo de' Medici,by the Pope after spending so many years busting heads and taking names. The then Emperor Maximilian II was pissed and declared that the pope declaration was invalid at the at the time but he eventually he walked that back came around and said is was okay for Tuscany to be a Grand Duchy.

So can the seventeen provinces be made into a Grand Duchy?

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The Grand Duchy of Lotheir
 
Well, AFAIK, Philippe III 'le Bon' (I think) and Charles 'le Temeraire', styled himself as Grand Duc de l'Occident (Grand Duke of the West), and neither the king of France nor the Holy Roman Emperor said anything about it
 
Yeah Phillip did style himself as a Grand Duke so this ALT Habsburg branch could easily do the same. Though it probably go under Grand Duchy of Burgundy.
 
I think the best way of making it stick is to begin with the term being a stylistic rather than legalistic title for the holder of several duchies (much how Philip did) before it gets applied as such during a succession resolution.
 
One thing you fail to consider here is whether this second son will motivate Charles to acquire additional territory in the Netherlands. There's some ripe pickings to the east.

Regardless, I can see Charles slipping just such a proposal into the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549, which already bundled the seventeen provinces together. If they're going to be inherited together they might as well have a common name...
 
One thing you fail to consider here is whether this second son will motivate Charles to acquire additional territory in the Netherlands. There's some ripe pickings to the east.

Regardless, I can see Charles slipping just such a proposal into the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549, which already bundled the seventeen provinces together. If they're going to be inherited together they might as well have a common name...

Maybe as diplomatic shorthand, but even Albert and Isabella still held the titles of duke/duchess, margrave/margravine etc of individual territories 50 years later, despite the intent being for them to establish a side-branch in the Netherlands.
 
Maybe as diplomatic shorthand, but even Albert and Isabella still held the titles of duke/duchess, margrave/margravine etc of individual territories 50 years later, despite the intent being for them to establish a side-branch in the Netherlands.
Isabella and Albert were mostly in a total different situation and the real intent of their rulership of Netherlands more than create a side-branch in Netherlands (related but fully indipendent) was resolving the embarassing situation created by Emperor Rudolph who refuted to marry anyone and was the original husband intended for Isabella (who was Philip II' eldest daughter and likely favourite child). So (the quite old for the time) Isabella was married to the younger (and landless) brother of the Emperor and the Netherlands were granted to them but Spain mantain control on that lands.

If Karl V had another son the Netherlands will be without doubt left to this second child and is not unlikely who Karl will give to his son a new title with the lands. OTL Karl take a long time for deciding if was better giving the Netherlands to his son Philip or to his eldest daughter Mary and not only when Mary of Spain was one of the two imperial princesses proposed as brides for Charles, Duke of Orleans (the youngest son of Francis I of France) but also after Mary's wedding with her first cousin the future HRE Maximilian of Austria. In the end Karl decided for Philip but reserved the Netherlands for the offspring of his second wedding with Mary I Tudor, Queen of England.
 
The Grand Duchy of Burgundy does have a better sound than The Grand Duchy of Lotheir. And calling the Seventeen Provinces Grand Duchy of Burgundy would also be a huge middle finger to France. Which was always a bonus. I wonder how long would it take for a people living under the title of Burgundy to start thinking of themselves as Burgundians, especially if they have a local Duke or King that rules over them.

One thing you fail to consider here is whether this second son will motivate Charles to acquire additional territory in the Netherlands. There's some ripe pickings to the east.

Well Charles already had the majority of the lands in the Netherlands, although he would likely eyeball Calais(under English control) and The Duchy of Lorraine(which was his great grandfather's ambition) But Charles also longed for peace, he spent so much of his reign at war already.
 
The Grand Duchy of Burgundy does have a better sound than The Grand Duchy of Lotheir. And calling the Seventeen Provinces Grand Duchy of Burgundy would also be a huge middle finger to France. Which was always a bonus. I wonder how long would it take for a people living under the title of Burgundy to start thinking of themselves as Burgundians, especially if they have a local Duke or King that rules over them.

I don't think Grand duchy of Lothier (Lothryk/Lothrijk) is that bad, then again I'm from Brabant and our duke was duke of Lothier, Brabant and (later also Limburg), however the official title was duke of Lotharingia, Brabant and Limburg. As Burgundy, Franche Comté is the (Free) County Palatine of Burgundy and the kingdom of Arelat is the kingdom of Burgundy, not to mention Aarburgund etc. It would be less a middle finger to France than you might think, just elevate the County Palatine of Burgundy to a Grand Duchy and make the Burgundian Netherlands a part of said Grand Duchy (elevating one of their Imperial fiefs to a kingdom, still a fief of the Empire, and making their other Imperial fiefs a part of said kingdom, was as far as Emperor Frederick III was willing to go in negotiations with Philip the Good and later Charles the Bold).
As far Burgundian in Dutch it is used as a cultural opposite to Calvinist, so a Burgundian knows how to enjoy the better things in life etc. Burgundian is taken from the lavish Burgundian Court the Valois 'Grand Dukes of the West' had, in the Netherlands people from Limburg and North Brabant are considered, but Belgians are considered to be more Burgundian than Dutchmen. So in the past the qualification Burgundian was coloured whether one was Catholic or Protestant. Still Burgundy as an identity above, Flanders, Holland, Brabant etc. is a possibility, roughly speaking that's what Dutch and even more Belgian* is.

(*= given the Flemish/Walloon differences)

Well Charles already had the majority of the lands in the Netherlands, although he would likely eyeball Calais(under English control) and The Duchy of Lorraine(which was his great grandfather's ambition) But Charles also longed for peace, he spent so much of his reign at war already.

As for longing for peace I'm sure Francis and Henry wanted that, when they were content, too. Well if Charles had another son, then he might have had seized a chance to take Julich, Cleves, Berg etc. Lorraine as an Imperial fief is tricky, they won't do anything to offend the Empire to much, since France threatens them way too much for that. Without such a move Charles as Emperor can't do much, otherwise he'd be a bad liege and could face an Empire-wide revolt.
 
Well Historically France has wanted all the things. The Low countries, Northern italy, everything west of the rhine... and east of it too.

I thought about dropping the name as The Grand Duchy of Lothryk, but i started having Dark Souls 3 flashbacks. Although the problem with Lotheir or Lothryk is what would be the demonym for such a nation.

This whole timeline question serves to be the setting for an alt history war game ive been putting together, the basic premise is that in the early 17th century the Holy roman Empire is at war with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, when news that the Duke of Lorraine has been killed while leading the East. France decides to seize the territory while the bulk of the Imperial forces are tired up. However They face sever opposition from the Grand Duchy of Burgundy/Lotheir/Lothryk, who has claims to the duchy via marriages and the Duchy of Swabia(reformed from a personal union between the March of Baden and the County of Wurttemburg) who really doesn't want a larger border with France. Im still working on a fourth faction Likely as a version of the Palatinate to act as an ally to France but im a bit fuzzy with that at the moment.

Could this more expansionist Charles try to grab East Frisia?

He could but then who would be the butt end of jokes in Germany?:biggrin:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Frisian_jokes
 
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