Plantagenet Royal Navy

Could Plantagnet England-Normandy want a Big Navy?

  • Yes, Channel piracy could still be a problem

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • Yes, to be able to affect the Medditerranean

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • Yes, control of the seas helps security of Normandy, even though there is a land route

    Votes: 11 57.9%
  • Yes, other

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • No, the only reason is ego, not a practical one

    Votes: 3 15.8%

  • Total voters
    19
In OTL, the English made a big navy for several reasons. One was that the two big economies in 1200s to 1500s were shipping and wheat. One needs ships for the first. Another reason is that if there is a huge navy, no one is going to be able to land troops on England, and therefore the royal treasury can save on not making any serious fortification efforts (which nearly bit them in the butt if the Battle of Trafalgar went the wrong way). Also, there were Channel pirates that needed to be chased away from English ships. Eventually the British put this navy to supporting a budding empire with holdings in Africa, India, Australia, and more (I exclude USA since it was lost before the EITC became big enough in India, which is part of the Classic British Empire).

Well, if the Plantagenets kept Normandy and Anjou for prolonged periods of time, England's finances would likely be wrecked fighting the Capets and the Valois. Sure Henry V's campaigns ran a profit, but that was only because he kept winning battles and ransoming French knights and lords. A reasonable assumption would be a mixtures of wins and losses, which hurts the weaker side (England).

Let's suppose the England-Normandy union continues. One way I imagine this is Henry the Young King inherits England, Anjou, and Normandy, Richard Aquitaine, Geoffrey is already married into the Brittany noble family, and John dies childless while supporting his brother. Then the Capets simply ignore the England-Normany for... I don't know let's say a minimum of 350 more years and the Plantagenet Normandy branch doesn't cause trouble for their liege since he respects their lands.

Or any other sequence of events where England and Normandy remain ruled by the same ruler (Plantagenet win the HYW for example) and keep living in palaces in London. My point being, England and Normandy have the same ruler and they don't need to build Normandy fortifications or raise armies for expensive wars in France because either France is leaving them alone or they are the kings of France but just happen to reside in England most of the time.

What incentive would there be to make a Royal Navy similar to OTL before European colonization? Both sides of the Channel would be controlled by friendly ports. Most pirates like to operate fairly close to their prey, so defending against pirates wouldn't require a large force (there would be some piracy, but less than OTL with both sides under Plantagenet control, particularly if they are friends with whoever controls the Netherlands).

In fact, there doesn't seem to be a good reason or butterfly a good reason in to start a naval tradition other than as an ego boost, at least until overseas colonization is viable. This is even under the scenario the Continental Holdings are not a liability needing defending.
 
I can't see a Plantagenet England that has a huge otl navy, mainly due to the costs involved. Even otl, the royal navy still heavily relied on privateers through the Tudor period and after. Once large colonies and colonial expansion takes place, then you need the big blue water navy. Before that a smaller coastal force supplemented by privateering is sufficient.

I could see a larger navy if Britain is conquered by the Norse/Danes in 1066 rather than the normans. Bigger than otl Plantagenet navy surely since it would be reliant on securing lines of communication across the north sea to run their kingdom.

Not very helpful I know, just wanted to add my thoughts.
 
If Lancasters rule France, France and England will separate that is the Plan of Henry V.

Ok, so maybe HYW isn't a great POD.

If John's marriage didn't result in Phillipe taking Normandy or he defended better, he holds off the threat for a generation or so. If the Capets just leave them alone, Normandy becomes a crown Jewel instead of a lemon (3/4 of John's income came from it because most taxes of a given region went to the local owner with the king getting a sliver, so owning a rich piece of land personally tended to give more income to a king than having a huge kingdom. Centralization would gives kings more power later).

Point being, with Normandy and England under the same ruler... why make more than a token navy? I suppose in the 1700s, the riches of India would beckon, but that meant there would be no English naval tradition until "oh, we have a reason to make a navy now"
 
I can't see a Plantagenet England that has a huge otl navy, mainly due to the costs involved. Even otl, the royal navy still heavily relied on privateers through the Tudor period and after. Once large colonies and colonial expansion takes place, then you need the big blue water navy. Before that a smaller coastal force supplemented by privateering is sufficient.

Wait, when DID OTL England get a strong Blue Navy tradition? I thought Elizabeth pre-Armada failure thought she had a few fine first rates and... a lot less than the Spanish, but good ships and crews for the few they had./
 
Ok, perhaps I should rephrase, what would encourage the Plantagenets to make a Blue Navy at the same time OTL England did?
 
In OTL, the English made a big navy for several reasons. One was that the two big economies in 1200s to 1500s were shipping and wheat. One needs ships for the first. Another reason is that if there is a huge navy, no one is going to be able to land troops on England, and therefore the royal treasury can save on not making any serious fortification efforts (which nearly bit them in the butt if the Battle of Trafalgar went the wrong way). Also, there were Channel pirates that needed to be chased away from English ships. Eventually the British put this navy to supporting a budding empire with holdings in Africa, India, Australia, and more (I exclude USA since it was lost before the EITC became big enough in India, which is part of the Classic British Empire).

In fact, there doesn't seem to be a good reason or butterfly a good reason in to start a naval tradition other than as an ego boost, at least until overseas colonization is viable. This is even under the scenario the Continental Holdings are not a liability needing defending.
I think you are missing a point. The reason there is a France is that England didn't have two competent kings in a row from 1150-1450. In two cases, Richard 1 and Henry V, the second king died young. If Richard doesn't die at Chaluz he defeats Phillip and the Angevins are emperors of England, Ireland, and France. Does that empire build a navy.
 
Actually the Tudor navy was like 30- 100 ships, and not of all of them were the big ones. Not chump change, but a bit cheaper than the hundreds I was imagining. So getting TTL navy similar to OTL navy wouldn't be too resource intensive if there isn't a big money pit elsewhere, but there needs to be a reason to make one.

Oh, Richard I couldn't be King of France, it was Edward III who had a claim. However, if John was a bit better, he could stay the biggest landowner in France, holding more of France than the French Kings.
 
Oh, Richard I couldn't be King of France, it was Edward III who had a claim. However, if John was a bit better, he could stay the biggest landowner in France, holding more of France than the French Kings.
Richard was at war with Philip when he died. He was in the process of making his claim by conquest.
 
Plantagenet England under Henry V created a respectable carrack-based navy, mainly to maintain English maritime security against the French Clos aux galees (naval arsenal) at Rouen. When French naval capabilities were destroyed after the English capture of Normandy there was no need for such a fleet and it was essentially allowed to rot away until Tudor times.

Still, a persistent England-Normandy union could still face maritime threats. French privateering is one such threat, though one should note that there are other ways to defend against that (i.e. onshore defence) without resorting to a costly navy. In any case, privateering is hardly likely to create mass- or permanent disruption to the England-Normandy supply line, especially with a successful England that maintains its hold on Gascony and neutralizes Brittany.

I think the impetus for the continuation of a navy would more likely come from the need to assert English economic independence against trading blocs such as the Hanseatic League, Danish attempts to control the Sound Toll, or future competition with Burgundy/the Low Countries.
 
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I think the only way for John not to lose Normandy is for John to give Aquitaine to Arthur and avoid Isabella of Angouleme at all costs, he was negotiating a marriage with a Portuguese Princess at that time.
 
I think the only way for John not to lose Normandy is for John to give Aquitaine to Arthur and avoid Isabella of Angouleme at all costs, he was negotiating a marriage with a Portuguese Princess at that time.

That's the easiest way.

But John had 22% more manpower and funds than Richard, so he could have fended off Phillipe like Richard did. Now, Richard was a great tactician and an inspiring leader while classic John was book smarts and hopeless at everything else and modern European historians are saying now he was actually an above average tactician but really unlucky (I don't really see this, but I'm not a historian). Either way he's not as awesome as Richard, but had more resources. The key is Château Gaillard. If the Plantagnets control it, they can harass any Capet incursions and maybe even make a profit of ransoming prisoners. It's also a good base to launch a counterattack after a failed Capet incursion.

Now in more ways than one, it's pretty much John's fault they lost that location. However, it's undeniable marrying Isabella of Angouleme was a mistake that led to disaster for John.

My question was, if they hold on to Normandy, though any means, and the Capets and later Valois just bug off after a few failed attempts (or if John picked a different marriage, no attempts... or heck if the triple division of land after Henry II then John's marriage is irrelevant), would it be possible for the Plantagnets to find a use to make a navy similar to OTL. The consensus seems to be it's possible to find a practical reason to make one.
 
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