Plans for possible TL (John of Gaunt king, Lollard reformation, etc.)

W/John of Gaunt king, who does Henry IV marry?

  • Anne of Bohemia as OTL Richard, can be set up same way

    Votes: 4 66.7%
  • Catherine Visconti, though her dad said "no" OTL to Richard

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Joan of Navrre - nice diplomatic matchup possible w/his OTL 2nd wife

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Marie of Berry - her dad tried to be peacemaker in Orleans-Armagnac tiff

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Someone else (who?)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6
I don't know when I'll have time to start this, but since I did a Waldensian early Reformation I thought I'd look at the start of a Lolalrd one, anyway. But, a lot more is involved, too.

The POD gets John of Gaunt on the throne due to early death of Philip II, with maybe a little arguemnt from Philippa's husband (Lionel's only issue) for his oldest son.

There will also be complications in France and beyond, as fighting ends a few years early and then resumes, leading to distraction that prevents Charles VI from being saved from a fire in Jan. of 1393. he has a son at that point, but he only livesd till 1401 OTl, so there will eventually be war over the French throne.

I have some ideas for there, butterflies leaving an overly confident sultan to insult Tamerlane more, a bulgarian war of independence in the early 1400s, and something similar to early Nationalism possibly, as Hussites will also be impacted.

However, I'm not sure what to do with England to start this early reformation, as to what will be best. the future Henry IV has to marry someone, and my ideas are:

Anne of Bohemia - Richard's OTL 1st wife, this destabilizes thigns more as neither of her sisters was very fertile (I might give him a daughter from her). However, teh drawback might end up beign a strength if she produces no son. Nobles were heavily against the marriage as it brought England little benefit OTL, but the de la Poles could still become friends with Henry TTL, and the Pope arranged it to give himself support in the schism. The anger against Rome could be enough that - comgbined with John II's desire to seize Papal lands to tax them - the king decides to break with Rome and lets a few Lollard things (like preaching salvation by grace through faith, not the Church) into a new Church of England.

Catherine Visconti: Considered OTl for Richard II but rejected by Visconti's father, would brign a huge dowry but no real reason why he'd accept Henry if he didn't Richard.

Joan of navarre: He wouldn't meet her the 2nd time TTL since he wouldn't be hanging around France, but he could as a first wife. Some ill feelings could be butterflied away.

4. Marie of Berry. The right age, and her father tried to be a peacemaker in the great struggle between the rival factions in the Armagnac-Orelans civil war, he might use this as a peace gesture to try and protect France.
If her 2nd husband dies early then she could be Henry IV's 2nd wife, too; or, Joanna or Blanche of Navarre (except the 1st had no children)) Not many brides available by this time, though Henry could even be married to Mortimer's youngest daughter by then. Herman II of Hesse's oldest daughter is one of few others, and she's only a couple years older than Isabella of France. (Even isabeau, the mother, would be possible!)

5. Someone else. It could be a Burgundian I suppose, as they allied with England against France later, or maybe there's another I haven't thought of.
 
Why would Charles VI's death lead to an eventual war for the French throne (besides the somnolent war with England over it)? Charles has a brother who seems clearly to have a better claim than any of their uncles do. I suppose Charles has daughters, but the ineligibility of daughters to succeed had been clear for decades at that point.
 
I don't know when I'll have time to start this, but since I did a Waldensian early Reformation I thought I'd look at the start of a Lolalrd one, anyway. But, a lot more is involved, too.

The POD gets John of Gaunt on the throne due to early death of Philip II, with maybe a little arguemnt from Philippa's husband (Lionel's only issue) for his oldest son.

There will also be complications in France and beyond, as fighting ends a few years early and then resumes, leading to distraction that prevents Charles VI from being saved from a fire in Jan. of 1393. he has a son at that point, but he only livesd till 1401 OTl, so there will eventually be war over the French throne.

I have some ideas for there, butterflies leaving an overly confident sultan to insult Tamerlane more, a bulgarian war of independence in the early 1400s, and something similar to early Nationalism possibly, as Hussites will also be impacted.

However, I'm not sure what to do with England to start this early reformation, as to what will be best. the future Henry IV has to marry someone, and my ideas are:

Anne of Bohemia - Richard's OTL 1st wife, this destabilizes thigns more as neither of her sisters was very fertile (I might give him a daughter from her). However, teh drawback might end up beign a strength if she produces no son. Nobles were heavily against the marriage as it brought England little benefit OTL, but the de la Poles could still become friends with Henry TTL, and the Pope arranged it to give himself support in the schism. The anger against Rome could be enough that - comgbined with John II's desire to seize Papal lands to tax them - the king decides to break with Rome and lets a few Lollard things (like preaching salvation by grace through faith, not the Church) into a new Church of England.

Catherine Visconti: Considered OTl for Richard II but rejected by Visconti's father, would brign a huge dowry but no real reason why he'd accept Henry if he didn't Richard.

Joan of navarre: He wouldn't meet her the 2nd time TTL since he wouldn't be hanging around France, but he could as a first wife. Some ill feelings could be butterflied away.

4. Marie of Berry. The right age, and her father tried to be a peacemaker in the great struggle between the rival factions in the Armagnac-Orelans civil war, he might use this as a peace gesture to try and protect France.
If her 2nd husband dies early then she could be Henry IV's 2nd wife, too; or, Joanna or Blanche of Navarre (except the 1st had no children)) Not many brides available by this time, though Henry could even be married to Mortimer's youngest daughter by then. Herman II of Hesse's oldest daughter is one of few others, and she's only a couple years older than Isabella of France. (Even isabeau, the mother, would be possible!)

5. Someone else. It could be a Burgundian I suppose, as they allied with England against France later, or maybe there's another I haven't thought of.

Henry IV might marry the same woman he married OTL - the Bohun inheritance is no joke.
 
Why would Charles VI's death lead to an eventual war for the French throne (besides the somnolent war with England over it)? Charles has a brother who seems clearly to have a better claim than any of their uncles do. I suppose Charles has daughters, but the ineligibility of daughters to succeed had been clear for decades at that point.

He was assassinated OTL. Charles' death could lead to claims that he, in fact, was behind it.
 
Top