Plans for Gloucester timeline

[VVD0D95]

So, based on an earlier thread of mine where Henry duke of Gloucester survives, here’s what I’m thinking of adding:

the duke of gloucester marries Maria of Nassau in 1661, their first born son named Charles is born in 1662

At the same time Charles II marries Catherine of Braganza and their daughter Elizabeth is born in 1663

James marries Anne Hyde as per otl they have two daughters Mary and Anne before Anne Hyde died in 1671, James would later die during the Anglo Dutch war.

England wins tbis version of the third Anglo Dutch war

In the mid 1670s it is decided that Charles ofgloucesger will marry Princess Elizabeth.

Is there anything else you all think I should add or would like to see?

 

[VVD0D95]

@Valena @isabella @Tyler96 @Kellan Sullivan

 

[Tyler96]

Just spitballing here, but would there be any tension between Elizabeth and her numerous bastard half-siblings (especially those born after her parents marriage)?

 

[VVD0D95]

Just spitballing here, but would there be any tension between Elizabeth and her numerous bastard half-siblings (especially those born after her parents marriage)?

I think there might well be especially if she takes a dislike to barbra Palmer no?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Catarina was pregnant in 1662, 1666, 1668 and 1669. Now whether this was simply speculation or ACTUAL pregnancies I'm not sure. For lols, why not LET them be ACTUAL pregnancies (in a fever dream she thought she'd given Charlie two sons and a daughter) that either end in stillbirths or short-lived infants.

So, we'd have:
Charles II, King of England, Scotland, France & Ireland [1660-] (b.1630) m: 1662 Catarina of Portugal (b.1638)

Elizabeth, Princess Royal (b.1662)​

​

Charles, Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay (b.1666, d.1667)​

​

James, Prince of Wales (b.1668, d. 1675)​

​

Henrietta (b.1670, d.1672)​

​

Catarina is unable to have MORE children after Henrietta. Elizabeth's betrothal to the dauphin/Carlos II of Spain (Charles will want the most prestigious match for his daughter, but as future Elizabeth II neither is practical) is broken when her brother dies. Although there MAY be talk of setting Catarina aside to marry again (as there was OTL), as OTL Charles refuses (points out how much instability Henry VIII caused by playing hokey-pokey with the succession). Arranges his daughter's betrothal/marriage to Gloucester's son, the duke of Richmond (I'm spitballing titles here. Clarence is the only other royal title available if Kendal and Cambridge are taken/reserved for York's sons, but the negative connotations of the title through Edward IV's brother and Jane Grey's hubby (who she was going to give the title) may make Charles leery to hand off such a title to someone) instead.

 

[VVD0D95]

Catarina was pregnant in 1662, 1666, 1668 and 1669. Now whether this was simply speculation or ACTUAL pregnancies I'm not sure. For lols, why not LET them be ACTUAL pregnancies (in a fever dream she thought she'd given Charlie two sons and a daughter) that either end in stillbirths or short-lived infants.

So, we'd have:
Charles II, King of England, Scotland, France & Ireland [1660-] (b.1630) m: 1662 Catarina of Portugal (b.1638)

Elizabeth, Princess Royal (b.1662)​

​

Charles, Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay (b.1666, d.1667)​

​

James, Prince of Wales (b.1668, d. 1675)​

​

Henrietta (b.1670, d.1672)​

​

Catarina is unable to have MORE children after Henrietta. Elizabeth's betrothal to the dauphin/Carlos II of Spain (Charles will want the most prestigious match for his daughter, but as future Elizabeth II neither is practical) is broken when her brother dies. Although there MAY be talk of setting Catarina aside to marry again (as there was OTL), as OTL Charles refuses (points out how much instability Henry VIII caused by playing hokey-pokey with the succession). Arranges his daughter's betrothal/marriage to Gloucester's son, the duke of Richmond (I'm spitballing titles here. Clarence is the only other royal title available if Kendal and Cambridge are taken/reserved for York's sons, but the negative connotations of the title through Edward IV's brother and Jane Grey's hubby (who she was going to give the title) may make Charles leery to hand off such a title to someone) instead.

Sounds good to me, and o tbink Henry was created duke of Gloucester and earl of Cambridge so I could see his son Charles being given Cambridge as a courtesy title no?

And lol parliament will kick up a shit fit when Charles says he wants his daughter betrothed to cvaelos it will be brilliant.

Would Charles Gloucester be named king regnant or consort?

 

[Tyler96]

I think there might well be especially if she takes a dislike to barbra Palmer no?

Which potentially has implications regarding what military or political positions Palmer’s sons get during the reign of Elizabeth/Charles III.

Or it could cause friction in the marriage of Elizabeth and Charles, if they have differing feelings towards the assorted bastards.

 

[Tyler96]

Would Charles Gloucester be named king regnant or consort?

The circumstances that led to a co-reign IOTL are absent here, no?

 

[VVD0D95]

Which potentially has implications regarding what military or political positions Palmer’s sons get during the reign of Elizabeth/Charles III.

Or it could cause friction in the marriage of Elizabeth and Charles, if they have differing feelings towards the assorted bastards.

Very true, Richmond and grafting will probably see a demotion in their roles if given such titles.

The circumstances that led to a co-reign IOTL are absent here, no?

True though Charlie also has a claim and is also likely the heir to Scotland once Charles II dies under Robert II entail

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

The circumstances that led to a co-reign IOTL are absent here, no?

In all fairness, the only precedent of a queen regnant's marriage that England has at this point is Mary Tudor. And Felipe II was named king.

Not to mention that as @VVD0D95 points out, Chuckie would be a foreign monarch (king of Scots) similarly to Felipe II or Willem III. Although I imagine he won't succeed in Scotland in 1685 (James II will) and then Chuckie better hope James has no son since otherwise the union will fracture (unless Charles II has managed in Act of Union to regulate a uniform succession TTL)

 

[VVD0D95]

In all fairness, the only precedent of a queen regnant's marriage that England has at this point is Mary Tudor. And Felipe II was named king.

Not to mention that as @VVD0D95 points out, Chuckie would be a foreign monarch (king of Scots) similarly to Felipe II or Willem III. Although I imagine he won't succeed in Scotland in 1685 (James II will) and then Chuckie better hope James has no son since otherwise the union will fracture (unless Charles II has managed in Act of Union to regulate a uniform succession TTL)

Tbis is true though I was thinking old James would die during the Anglo Dutch war of the early seventies which would also see England win

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Tbis is true though I was thinking old James would die during the Anglo Dutch war of the early seventies which would also see England win

Fair enough. Then Chuckie's just gotta wait for his dad to die (similarly to Felipe II) - since I DON'T see Henry of Oatlands abdicating Scotland

 

[VVD0D95]

Fair enough. Then Chuckie's just gotta wait for his dad to die (similarly to Felipe II) - since I DON'T see Henry of Oatlands abdicating Scotland

Indeed not though this does make
Me wonder would Charlie try and bring the two thrones into line in terms of succession or leave Scotland be?

 

[Brita]

Indeed not though this does make
Me wonder would Charlie try and bring the two thrones into line in terms of succession or leave Scotland be?

Do you think he could try to have a kind of Act of Union passed so Elizabeth and Charles will be recognised as co-rulers of both kingdoms?

 

[VVD0D95]

Do you think he could try to have a kind of Act of Union passed so Elizabeth and Charles will be recognised as co-rulers of both kingdoms?

Hmm I tbink it’s possible and parliament is likely to be more amenable to such a thing here without fear of a catholic succession

 

[VVD0D95]

Of course there’s nothing stopping Charles iii and Elizabeth II doing this themselves no?

 

[Brita]

Of course there’s nothing stopping Charles iii and Elizabeth II doing this themselves no?

True. In this case I think Charles could easily be recognised as King regnant of England with Elizabeth as Queen regnant but I wondered if Elizabeth wouldn't be a mere Queen consort in Scotland.

 

[VVD0D95]

True. In this case I think Charles could easily be recognised as King regnant of England with Elizabeth as Queen regnant but I wondered if Elizabeth wouldn't be a mere Queen consort in Scotland.

Hmm very true perhaps they could fudge it a little? Declare them both monarchs etc?

 

[VVD0D95]

Of course when Charles ii dies, Henry becomes king not Charlie junior so there is that

 

[Brita]

Hmm very true perhaps they could fudge it a little? Declare them both monarchs etc?

Of course when Charles ii dies, Henry becomes king not Charlie junior so there is that

Yes it could something like that: when Charles II dies, Elizabeth succeeds him with Charlie Jr being made King regnant, while Henry becomes King of Scotland. Then Henry dies, Charlie succeeds and officially recognises his wife as his co-ruler.