Planetocopia Map Thread

Well the finality of V3 hasn’t aged to well lol, V4 is already a WiP now for Retrograde/Turnovia. Revised bio map will come along with it too.

Another thing me and Molotov are discussing is how animals may change their biological ranges, as he is planning on doing his own retrograde timeline set in the future.

One example he gave was the white nosed coati;
Prograde range;

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Retrograde range;
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Due to the much drier conditions in Central America and eastern Mexico, while California, Baja and to a lesser extent Utah, Nevada, Sonora and western Arizona become wetter. Cali also becomes slightly warmer on average than otl. He also believed some of the monkeys in southern Mexico could also potentially make the migration.

An example I gave was black bears losing their range in Dixie, Alaska and Yukon, but expanding northeast into the tip of Hudson Bay, and southwest through California and western Mexico.
 
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A long time ago when I went by a different name on this site, I created Americalis; a world which was flipped-turned-upside down, with the South Pole located in a random lake in the middle of Missouri. Amongst several others itches I've had recently, I've been dying to revive this as a casual project which could be worked-on by anyone who gives a damn. The first element I wanted to polish was, of course, the most basic of basics; ocean currents and biomes.

Americalis.png

Looking back to that first post eight years ago (time moves to fast), I was annoyed at some of the geographical features I put in (the random sea in Antarctica, the lack of a Chukchi Peninsula), so I've done my best to spruce-up the map to make it more OTLish. However, I've decided to open-up Lake Eyre to give Australia a nice little inland sea, but I'm amenable to removing that if it's too insane of a change.

The extent of the glaciation was something else that annoyed me for reasons which will become apparent. This super-glaciation was fixed by CourageousLife in a latter post when they created a rough draft of the biome map, but I'm still not convinced that glaciers would spread as far as the southern coastline. Why is that?

Americalis (Ocean Currents).png

I am by no means an expert on physical geography, ocean currents, or environments, so this is just my rough estimation of what they would look like. From what I understand from OTL, Antarctica's glaciation was driven by a lot of factors, with the Antarctic Circumpolar Current being a major player in the continent's deep freeze. From what I can parse out from these currents, the equivalent ACC is occurring at the north pole (so I can imagine an extensive glaciation there); North America on the other hand would be warmed to a degree by equatorial waters coming into the *North Atlantic* and down the east coast of *South America*. As a result, I could imagine some degree of ice build-up around the pole itself, but not extending further north than 80° South. If that is indeed the case, would areas like the Hudson Bay and the *Northwest Passage* even exist without the vast ice cover seen in OTL's glacial maximum? Some food for thought.

I really like CourageousLife's biome map as a jumping off point for developing the environment more deeply. I enjoy this scenario because it opens up basically the entire world (minus some islands and the inland US) to human habitation, and I'm a fan of the unique environmental features (like the Chinese/Siberian deserts, temperate Australia/Antarctica, and the Mega-Mediterranean around OTL's Artic Ocean). I'll be working on an updated biome map over the next few days, but I'm interested to see if others are interested in working on this project as well.

Americalis Biomes.png

Americalis Biomes courtesy of CourageousLife
 
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WorldbuildingPasta did some tiltmap climate projections on his blog recently. Here’s the Koppen maps;




For the first one, I shifted the Earth's axis by 90°, placing the north pole at to sit at (0, 0) latitude and longitude, just off the African coast. Note that for these models I haven't attempted to replace the glacial topography of Greenland and Antarctica with any sort of ice-free reconstruction of the actual land surface, so they appear here with high, cool internal plateaus despite sitting near the equator, though this isn't actually too far off from what we might expect for them after isostatic rebound (and really a lot of regions would probably have substantially different topography if Earth had always had this orientation; much of the northern coastlines of Eurasia and North America have been shaped by glacial action and even long-term patterns of mantle convection and continent drift may be influenced in some way by the planet's rotational axis).

I also haven't altered any other parameters like axial tilt or CO levels from the baseline, but with no large glaciated landmasses, the overall climate is about 3 °C warmer than our Earth and there are no permanent ice caps. There are some clear winners and losers here in terms of overall hospitability and biodiversity: North America and Antarctica sport vast rainforests while Asia and South America have dried out; Australia has ended up a tad cooler and wetter; Europe sports much the same range of climates as in real life but shuffled around; and Africa has lost its arid belts but substantially cooled down, and might be expected to support a single vast boreal forest.



There are some interesting patterns over Asia I think are worth highlighting.


The large, equator-spanning continent experiences pretty strong temperature swings, which leads to large shifts in wind patterns and the tropical rain belt; a monsoon-type wind pattern, which we've seen before but usually think about in terms of drawing moisture from an equatorial ocean onto a subtropical landmass. Here, the landmass is equatorial and the ocean (the Arctic) lies to the east, but we still see a pattern of wetter summers and intensely dry winters as the winds off that ocean shift direction.

Meanwhile, a patch of the west coast remains conspicuously wet year-round, despite appearing to lie in the rainshadow of the Himalayas if we assume generally west-blowing tropical winds; to some extent this is helped by the monsoon pattern (as it brings winds from the north and south rather than exclusively from the east across the mountains) but it's also likely a result of lee cyclogenesis; the tendency for large mountain ranges with winds blowing directly across them to form a low-pressure zone on their lee (downwind) side, which can form cyclones that draw in moisture from nearby seas.



For the second model, we were looking to see what the impact of a large polar continent would be, so placed the north pole at (45° N, 80° E) latitude and longitude, near the China-Kazakhstan border, in order to place most of Asia in the Arctic circle. Oddly enough, this one only came out a tad cooler than the last model, and despite my attempts to encourage glaciers, they haven't spread out from Tibet (a trick I've been experimenting with a bit has been to start models with 1 meter of initial global ice cover, which helps slow its initial warming; for our Earth with its true arrangement of continents this does a better job of replicating the true ice cover, but more generally there seems to be a fairly narrow range of parameters where this works without the ice just promptly melting away anyway, like here, or failing to melt at all and locking the planet into a snowball state). A more complex approach of balancing at a lower CO level first and then warming might be more successful, but I may be overthinking things here.

At any rate this has given us a rather more eclectic mix of continental and cool temperate climates, and Asia is still starkly cold; most of the continent drops to under -40 °C in winter and thaws for only 3 months, but during that brief summer temperatures can still rise to over 20 °C, allowing for a brief, intense growing season. I ponder if this might be regarded as something of a cold world, despite being similar in global temperature to the last case and warmer than Earth, simply because so much of the habitable area is near the poles. This is one of the points I've been trying to emphasize a bit across these explorations, that the nature of a world's surface environments aren't always directly linked to simple global parameters.

That'll do for today, then. I may do more mini-explorations like this in the future, for quick model runs that don't necessarily merit the deep analysis or rigor of the main explorations, but for now work continues on the next main post, on the impact of eccentricity (and I'm also still working on the main series, I'm just a bit held up by probably getting a bit too obsessive about perfecting the process for generating the topography).”
 
Some more Retrograde/Turnovia city analyses, these ones focussed on northeast Asia and using the upcoming V4;

Tokyo: Csb, with the hottest month 20 degrees (august) coldest month 16 degrees (February). Very weird and not at all what we were expecting. Most humidity (much less than before) is in the winter months. Definitely city material but I doubt it’d be the mega-metropolis of otl. Hard to find a real life analogue.

Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (regional capital of Kamchatka); Cfb. Lowest winter temp drops down to 10 degrees C in January, while the hottest summer temp goes up to 16 degrees C in August, median temperature of 13C. No significant rainfall difference between months observed. About 2C cooler in August but 12C warmer in January than otl Stockholm, or has the same summer temp as (but 5C higher in January than) Victoria, Canada. In real life, it’s 13C in August and -8C in January, so a vast difference.

Yuhzno-Sakhalinsk (regional capital of Sakhalin): Csb. Lowest winter temp drops down to 11 degrees in January, but the hottest temp goes up to 17 degrees in August/September. Significant rainfall difference between seasons: (the majority of rainfall is concentrated in November/December while there is a significant dry season in the summer months). About the same as otl (postindustrial mind you) for August, but *way* warmer for January (-13C in otl), resulting in an annual median temperature of 14C, almost 12 higher than otl, or 2-3C higher than either Vancouver, Washington (which ranges from 18C in July/August to 3-4C in January/February) or Akita, Japan (ranges from 24C in August to 0C in January). Very oceanic and mild, akin to coastal Washington. Definitely mild and easy to live in, and the position on the end of an island/peninsula makes it an easy stop for trade routes.

Sapporo: Csb. Lowest winter temp drops down to roughly 14 degrees C in January, while the highest summer temp goes up to 18 degrees C, split between August and September. Average annual temperature is now 15.5C (compared to 8.6C in otl, though that is postindustrial). Significant rainfall difference between seasons: (the majority of rainfall happens during the winter months, with its highest peak being February/March while there is a significant dry season between April and October). Slightly drier overall than otl but with comparable annual humidity to otl London.

Vladivostok: Csb. Lowest winter temp drops down to roughly 8 degrees in January, while the highest summer temp jumps to roughly 19 degrees in July/August, so it is more continental than the islands, but still very maritime overall. Significant rainfall difference between seasons: (the majority of rainfall happens during the winter months, with it's highest peak being January/April while there is a significant dry season between May and December. Vladivostok ittl compares best to Seattle, Washington (19C in July-August and 5C in December-January) and Nantes, France (19C in July-August and 6C in December-January), both postindustrial.

Tl;dr it compares fairly well with our Pacific Northwest, and is thus very mild and easily liveable. While Japan and southern Primorsky are drier, most of the Russian far east is wetter, particularly around the Okhost coastline and even more so west of Sakhalin around the Amur, so it is very likely a temperate rainforest environment would emerge.

Baku; Now a Dwa climate, with a hot (but not otl level) wet summer and mildly cold dry winters that only briefly go below 0C December-February. Somewhat akin to otl northern China, but less extreme in swings. Could definitely be substantial as a settlement.
 
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Vatican City: Cfa climate type. Similar to OTL New York City. Seasonal mean temps are 0 C in January, 24 C in July. Annual precipitation is approximately 1000 mm, evenly distributed throughout the year. Possibly still a major city given the temperate climate and location on the Tiber River.
I’m afraid as of the newest revision of the map, Jack believes it is now either Cfb or Dfb based on the temperature ranges. Still the other stuff seems accurate, and I’m sure a good sized city could dwell there.
 
Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (regional capital of Kamchatka); Cfb. Lowest winter temp drops down to 10 degrees C in January, while the hottest summer temp goes up to 16 degrees C in August, median temperature of 13C. No significant rainfall difference between months observed. About 2C cooler in August but 12C warmer in January than otl Stockholm, or has the same summer temp as (but 5C higher in January than) Victoria, Canada.
This one I found the most interesting. It's insanely warm for the latitude. Closest place I can think of in OTL is Valentia, Ireland, but even then it's 2C cooler and one degree latitude further south.
Vladivostok: Csb. Lowest winter temp drops down to roughly 8 degrees in January, while the highest summer temp jumps to roughly 19 degrees in July/August, so it is more continental than the islands, but still very maritime overall. Significant rainfall difference between seasons: (the majority of rainfall happens during the winter months, with it's highest peak being January/April while there is a significant dry season between May and December. Vladivostok ittl compares best to Seattle, Washington (19C in July-August and 5C in December-January) and Nantes, France (19C in July-August and 6C in December-January), both postindustrial.
I think places in the northern part of Spain would be the most similar to retro-Vladivostok, like Bilbao and A Coruña. Pretty much the same latitude too.

Looking forward to the next installment.
 
This one I found the most interesting. It's insanely warm for the latitude. Closest place I can think of in OTL is Valentia, Ireland, but even then it's 2C cooler and one degree latitude further south.
Yeah, funny how it works out, and definitely milder than I thought it would be. I was expecting akin to our Scandinavia or something along those lines, though further north could still fit that definition. Still, it’s in a good position to trade with various countries surrounding it.
I think places in the northern part of Spain would be the most similar to retro-Vladivostok, like Bilbao and A Coruña. Pretty much the same latitude too.
Ahhh, I checked and aside from being 1C warmer all around (which anthropogenic climate change likely is a factor in), the two have basically the exact same temperature range! This indicates that the region and some of the others aforementioned would definitely be able to support wildlife that lives or lived much further south in otl. Things like macaque monkeys, raccoon dogs, hyraxes, rhinos (in otl found as far north as the Central Plains and even Inner Mongolia until the end of the Bronze Age) and even elephants would now be able to dwell there alongside native animals. That sounds absurd at first till one remembers that rhesus macaques iotl were once found near Beijing and Pyongyang during Pleistocene interglacials, and the latest known evidence of Barbary macaques in Europe during the late Pleistocene is from Hunas, Bavaria (nearby Nuremberg averages 19C in August and 0C in January), whereas one of the best elephant graveyards (and butchery sites) in Pleistocene Europe is just north of Neumark (averages 0C in January and 18C in August).
Looking forward to the next installment.
Thank you, it will be fun to cover I bet.
 
A long time ago when I went by a different name on this site, I created Americalis; a world which was flipped-turned-upside down, with the South Pole located in a random lake in the middle of Missouri. Amongst several others itches I've had recently, I've been dying to revive this as a casual project which could be worked-on by anyone who gives a damn. The first element I wanted to polish was, of course, the most basic of basics; ocean currents and biomes.


Looking back to that first post eight years ago (time moves to fast), I was annoyed at some of the geographical features I put in (the random sea in Antarctica, the lack of a Chukchi Peninsula), so I've done my best to spruce-up the map to make it more OTLish. However, I've decided to open-up Lake Eyre to give Australia a nice little inland sea, but I'm amenable to removing that if it's too insane of a change.

The extent of the glaciation was something else that annoyed me for reasons which will become apparent. This super-glaciation was fixed by CourageousLife in a latter post when they created a rough draft of the biome map, but I'm still not convinced that glaciers would spread as far as the southern coastline. Why is that?


I am by no means an expert on physical geography, ocean currents, or environments, so this is just my rough estimation of what they would look like. From what I understand from OTL, Antarctica's glaciation was driven by a lot of factors, with the Antarctic Circumpolar Current being a major player in the continent's deep freeze. From what I can parse out from these currents, the equivalent ACC is occurring at the north pole (so I can imagine an extensive glaciation there); North America on the other hand would be warmed to a degree by equatorial waters coming into the *North Atlantic* and down the east coast of *South America*. As a result, I could imagine some degree of ice build-up around the pole itself, but not extending further north than 80° South. If that is indeed the case, would areas like the Hudson Bay and the *Northwest Passage* even exist without the vast ice cover seen in OTL's glacial maximum? Some food for thought.

I really like CourageousLife's biome map as a jumping off point for developing the environment more deeply. I enjoy this scenario because it opens up basically the entire world (minus some islands and the inland US) to human habitation, and I'm a fan of the unique environmental features (like the Chinese/Siberian deserts, temperate Australia/Antarctica, and the Mega-Mediterranean around OTL's Artic Ocean). I'll be working on an updated biome map over the next few days, but I'm interested to see if others are interested in working on this project as well.

View attachment 867643
Americalis Biomes courtesy of CourageousLife
This was certainly a blast from the past. Glad to see that some of that work still seems to be paying off.
 
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@Forbiddenparadise64, I'd love to see retrograde/turnovia climate anaylses for the following cities:
  • Rome
  • Milan
  • Lisbon
  • Madrid
  • Marseille
  • Paris
  • Athens
  • Istanbul
I’d have to go over a more detailed evaluation, but Rome as with Vatican fits as a Cfb climate as winters are above 0C but not hugely so, and summers average under 22C. So relatively mild and temperate. Milan and Marseille are Dfb funnily enough, as they have warm and decently long summers, but have sun zero winters. Madrid appears to be Cfb and Lisbon a solid Cfa, as the Iberian peninsula manages to catch the periphery of a reversed midatlantic current along with the Saharan monsoon, so it is much wetter than otl, but Spain is only moderately cooler whereas Portugal and Galicia are almost the same in temperature, Paris is borderline Dfb/Dfc, similar to otl Northern European Russia. Athens is borderline Cfa/Dfa due to having hot summers but mild winters; akin to New York, and Istanbul is a firm Dfa, as it still has hot and wet summers, but the wet winters are subzero.
 
I’d have to go over a more detailed evaluation, but Rome as with Vatican fits as a Cfb climate as winters are above 0C but not hugely so, and summers average under 22C. So relatively mild and temperate. Milan and Marseille are Dfb funnily enough, as they have warm and decently long summers, but have sun zero winters. Madrid appears to be Cfb and Lisbon a solid Cfa, as the Iberian peninsula manages to catch the periphery of a reversed midatlantic current along with the Saharan monsoon, so it is much wetter than otl, but Spain is only moderately cooler whereas Portugal and Galicia are almost the same in temperature, Paris is borderline Dfb/Dfc, similar to otl Northern European Russia. Athens is borderline Cfa/Dfa due to having hot summers but mild winters; akin to New York, and Istanbul is a firm Dfa, as it still has hot and wet summers, but the wet winters are subzero.
It looks like the majority of these cities would actually regularly get snow in the Winter in measurable amounts.
 
It looks like the majority of these cities would actually regularly get snow in the Winter in measurable amounts.
Indeed!
Other cities I’m interested in temperature ranges for ittl are Baltimore (solid Csa here) , Richmond (hotter Csa), Raleigh (BSh/BWh borderline), Portland (Dfb/Dfa borderline), Del Norte (Cfa coastal and Dfa inland), LA (solid Cfa), Las Vegas (Cwa but with Dwb surroundings) and Phoenix (Cwa).

Any thoughts on these?
 
I’d have to go over a more detailed evaluation, but Rome as with Vatican fits as a Cfb climate as winters are above 0C but not hugely so, and summers average under 22C. So relatively mild and temperate. Milan and Marseille are Dfb funnily enough, as they have warm and decently long summers, but have sun zero winters. Madrid appears to be Cfb and Lisbon a solid Cfa, as the Iberian peninsula manages to catch the periphery of a reversed midatlantic current along with the Saharan monsoon, so it is much wetter than otl, but Spain is only moderately cooler whereas Portugal and Galicia are almost the same in temperature, Paris is borderline Dfb/Dfc, similar to otl Northern European Russia. Athens is borderline Cfa/Dfa due to having hot summers but mild winters; akin to New York, and Istanbul is a firm Dfa, as it still has hot and wet summers, but the wet winters are subzero.
So, If I'm getting it right:
Rome = Berlin or Munich
Milan/Marseille = Boston
Madrid = Asheville, NC
Lisbon = Washington DC
Paris = Perm
Athens = New York City
Istanbul = Indianapolis
 
So, If I'm getting it right:
Rome = Berlin or Munich
Milan/Marseille = Boston
Madrid = Asheville, NC
Lisbon = Washington DC
Paris = Perm
Athens = New York City
Istanbul = Indianapolis
I guess so, yeah! New York itself ittl is quite like otl Portland but with a slightly warmer summer (22C vs 20C in August and both are 4C in January), so it seems likely New England, Nova Scotia and even Newfoundland are akin to otl Cascadia. SoCal apparently is similar to otl Arkansas but more oceanic.

Would anyone be interested in speculating how the ranges of animals might be changed in such a timeline? One I was particularly interested in is how far north macaque monkeys (some of the best old world monkeys adapted to cooler weather) would be able to go. In our world, macaques are found across subsaharan africa, much of Southern Asia and even east Asia up to the northern tip of Honshu (Mutsu averages 22C in its hottest month and -1C in its coldest, not counting the highlands of the Japanese mountains), as Japanese ones have thicker hair. Furthermore, in prehistoric times they were found much more extensively in Europe and mainland Asia; Rhesus macaques are known from Beijing (27C in the hottest month and -3C in the coldest) and Pyongyang (25C in the hottest and -6C in the coldest) for example. On the other end of Eurasia, Barbary macaques are known from a few miles north of Norfolk, England (17C in the hottest and 5C in the coldest) and a few east of Nuremberg, Germany (18C in the hottest and 0C in the coldest) around the Pleistocene times, at least during warm interglacial periods.

As can be seen, in this world, Europe is considerably cooler and wetter than ours in modern conditions, whereas east Asia is warmer and drier. I can see Greece, Iberia and parts of Italy still being habitable for Barbary macaques (the most basal macaque species btw), but it’s hard to imagine them getting into southern France or Croatia, never mind Britain or Germany. On the other side of Eurasia, ttl’s Yuhzno-Sakhalinsk now has a milder climate than otl Norfolk (the same in August but 6C warmer in January), and ttl Vladivostok is the same in temperature range as otl Noirmoutier, France, not to mention Japanese and rhesus macaques seem somewhat better than Barbarys at cold tolerance, so I imagine they could go far.
 
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