Plan Z

CalBear

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Work on the Iowas was started in 1940. New Jersey, which is historically regarded as the last Iowa class battleship, because it was completed before
Wisconsin. The Montana class was never started. Aside from an episode of
G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero, called Sink the Montana, no battleship, or
submarine, except for one in the 1989 movie The Abyss, was named after Montana.


As opposed to the Plan Z vessels, most of which were never laid down?

Planned fleet compared to planned fleet is apples vs. apples.

Next?
 
It accelerated the U.S. building program. The actual ships that made it into the water were virtually ALL approved (if not designed) by mid 1941.

I did not mean Dec 1941 as the turning point, but beginning of the Second World War. I'm sure you have far better sources available, but AFAIK, FY1938 (and that was in 1938, before Second World War but during time when there was clear tensions in Europe and Sino-Japanese War) was minuscule compared to massive FY1940 program.

Just summarily checking out for carrier contracts from:

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/contract.htm

In 1936-1938, no contracts for carriers, in Jan 1939 - June 1940 contract for 1 aircraft carrier, July-December 1940, contracts for 11 aircraft carriers.

Without Second World War, it's hard for me to see why USN would expand, although newer units would be ordered to replace obsolete ones. Even there the usual trend was decreasing, rather than increasing, ship strength.
 

CalBear

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I did not mean Dec 1941 as the turning point, but beginning of the Second World War. I'm sure you have far better sources available, but AFAIK, FY1938 (and that was in 1938, before Second World War but during time when there was clear tensions in Europe and Sino-Japanese War) was minuscule compared to massive FY1940 program.

Just summarily checking out for carrier contracts from:

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/contract.htm

In 1936-1938, no contracts for carriers, in Jan 1939 - June 1940 contract for 1 aircraft carrier, July-December 1940, contracts for 11 aircraft carriers.

Without Second World War, it's hard for me to see why USN would expand, although newer units would be ordered to replace obsolete ones. Even there the usual trend was decreasing, rather than increasing, ship strength.


The Congress was alarmed by Germany, but even more so by the Japanese. Japan's clearly aggressive actions put the Philippines at risk in addition to Guam, Wake, and Hawaii. If you look into the 1940 Act you will find, in addition to the shipbuilding program, massive amounts of money designated to improve fortifications acrosss the Pacific.

Even if the Atlantic War didn't begin as IOTL, the Nazi ship building program, coupled with the British program, would have more or less forced the U.S. into the same program as occurred. Even during the deepest part of the isolationist period, it was acknowledged that the Fleet was needed to keep the world at arm's length. Spending dropped, of course, during the Depression, but began to jump in early 1939, when spending levels jumped by about 18%.

Again, this is one of those rather silly "What If's", based on potential rather than actual work completed. It is still noteworthy to compare a building program to a BUILDING PROGRAM. IOTL the U.S. completed well over 60% of the ships described, slowing down only when it was clear that the Axis had been defeated with the forces in hand or close to completion. Germany completed two of the Plan Z BB & the two Heavy cruisers.

Plan Z was meaningless.
 

bard32

Banned
I think Calbear's premise is that there is no WW2 so the Montana's are built.

I wish they had been built:cool:

The Montanas were supposed to be the follow on to the Iowas. However, they
were cancelled, when, I don't know. The Abyss, one of James Cameron's best
movies, it's Alien Meets Sealab 2020, was about an undersea mining crew that
was contracted by the Navy to find a missing nuclear submarine named USS
Montana, and it gave the hull number. However, the hull number was that of another Ohio class nuclear submarine.
 

bard32

Banned
The Congress was alarmed by Germany, but even more so by the Japanese. Japan's clearly aggressive actions put the Philippines at risk in addition to Guam, Wake, and Hawaii. If you look into the 1940 Act you will find, in addition to the shipbuilding program, massive amounts of money designated to improve fortifications acrosss the Pacific.

Even if the Atlantic War didn't begin as IOTL, the Nazi ship building program, coupled with the British program, would have more or less forced the U.S. into the same program as occurred. Even during the deepest part of the isolationist period, it was acknowledged that the Fleet was needed to keep the world at arm's length. Spending dropped, of course, during the Depression, but began to jump in early 1939, when spending levels jumped by about 18%.

Again, this is one of those rather silly "What If's", based on potential rather than actual work completed. It is still noteworthy to compare a building program to a BUILDING PROGRAM. IOTL the U.S. completed well over 60% of the ships described, slowing down only when it was clear that the Axis had been defeated with the forces in hand or close to completion. Germany completed two of the Plan Z BB & the two Heavy cruisers.

Plan Z was meaningless.

Let's not forget the six proposed Alaska class CBs. They were Alaska, Guam,
Hawaii, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Samoa. Of those six, Hawaii, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Samoa, were cancelled. The only ones that were completed, and saw service in World War II, were Alaska and Guam.
This is according to another source of mine, The Ships And Planes Of The U.S. Fleet. The Alaskas referred to as "cruiser battleships," by the USN.
However, when Japan built the Yamatos, they had 18" guns, and they were the largest battleships in the world. The Alaska, and the Guam, were sold for scrap after the war but remained intact until the 1960s.
 
The Montanas were supposed to be the follow on to the Iowas. However, they
were cancelled, when, I don't know. The Abyss, one of James Cameron's best
movies, it's Alien Meets Sealab 2020, was about an undersea mining crew that
was contracted by the Navy to find a missing nuclear submarine named USS
Montana, and it gave the hull number. However, the hull number was that of another Ohio class nuclear submarine.

While having nothing to do with the discussion, the SSBNs are the equivalent to capital ships these days - or at least when it comes to the naming.
 
This is according to another source of mine, The Ships And Planes Of The U.S. Fleet. The Alaskas referred to as "cruiser battleships," by the USN.
However, when Japan built the Yamatos, they had 18" guns, and they were the largest battleships in the world. The Alaska, and the Guam, were sold for scrap after the war but remained intact until the 1960s.

I know the source for your material and its dated. The Alaskas are properly known as large cruisers.
 

CalBear

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Let's not forget the six proposed Alaska class CBs. They were Alaska, Guam,
Hawaii, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Samoa. Of those six, Hawaii, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Samoa, were cancelled. The only ones that were completed, and saw service in World War II, were Alaska and Guam.
This is according to another source of mine, The Ships And Planes Of The U.S. Fleet. The Alaskas referred to as "cruiser battleships," by the USN.
However, when Japan built the Yamatos, they had 18" guns, and they were the largest battleships in the world. The Alaska, and the Guam, were sold for scrap after the war but remained intact until the 1960s.

If you had bothered to read my post you would see that the Alaskas were listed as "Large" cruisers, the USN designation (not cruiser battleships, reference Jane's Fighting Ships), and (panzerschiffs) to compare them to the Kriegsmarine building program.
 
The Alaskas referred to as "cruiser battleships," by the USN.

CB doesn't stand for Cruiser-Battleship.

C stands for cruiser all right and is a type-designation. The suffix A stands for heavy (descended from armored), L stands for light. Hence CA cruiser, heavy, CL Cruiser, Light. B stands for large. So CB is Cruiser, Large. The designation for battle cruiser was CC.

Other B-suffix ships were the Midways CVB and battleships BB.

CVB? C = Cruiser, V - fixed wing aviation B = Large. So, CVB large aircraft-carrying cruiser
 

Sargon

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CB doesn't stand for Cruiser-Battleship.

C stands for cruiser all right and is a type-designation. The suffix A stands for heavy (descended from armored), L stands for light. Hence CA cruiser, heavy, CL Cruiser, Light. B stands for large. So CB is Cruiser, Large. The designation for battle cruiser was CC.

Other B-suffix ships were the Midways CVB and battleships BB.

CVB? C = Cruiser, V - fixed wing aviation B = Large. So, CVB large aircraft-carrying cruiser

Indeed. It is perfectly logical.

In fact, check this thread for a long-time-ago-post which contains a listing of designations I found somewhere.

On a related note, I particularly found amusing/interesting Admiral Furashita's designation for large battleships: BBB.


Sargon
 
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CB doesn't stand for Cruiser-Battleship.

CVB? C = Cruiser, V - fixed wing aviation B = Large. So, CVB large aircraft-carrying cruiser

You know I thought that CVB stood for battle carrier, as opposed to the escort carriers and wasn't there a short lived strike carrier designation? I didn't quite think that 'B' stood for large.

Maybe I'm getting my Starfleet Battles designations mixed in by accident.
 
CVB stands for large carrier (only the Midways were ever classified) and CVA stood for attack carrier, that was used for about thirty years. It was used to differentiate between carriers intended to go out and blow stuff up and ASW carriers (classification CVS).
 
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