Plan Z scrapped in favor of more subs

Suppose Doenitz convinces pre-WWII German OKM that surface naval warfare is a lost cause and reroutes at least half those Plan Z resources to submarine construction/R&D/etc. What impact might that have on the war, if any?
 
Depends, if this occurs post Munich, minor change, probably pro Germany but not certain. Pre Munich, bad for Germany as they just broke the Anglo-German naval agreement. Thus Britain is going to be less inclined to trust them and more likely to stand up for Czechoslovakia and start the war early, if not then, when he tries for annexation
 
The big question is of course when. Both sets of Twins were laid down in the mid-1930s, the pocket battleships were put into service in the early to mid-1930s, and the Hipper class cruisers were laid down in the mid-1930s.

So Doenitz get all or some of these ships cancelled or just some of them or do these ships get finished with the priority going to submarines from 1938/1939 on?

I am of the opinion that the OTL German surface fleet was not the colossal waste it is often portrayed as on this forum and elsewhere. The big ships in particular where an effective fleet in being that tied down major RN and later USN surface units for a large chunk of the war. Units that would have been free to do other things without the threat of the KM's heavies.
 

Deleted member 1487

Suppose Doenitz convinces pre-WWII German OKM that surface naval warfare is a lost cause and reroutes at least half those Plan Z resources to submarine construction/R&D/etc. What impact might that have on the war, if any?
Plan Z included a major expansion of the Uboat arm, it was just spaced out while they built the surface fleet; maybe have them front load the Uboats instead?
 
maybe have them front load the Uboats instead?
This just hits the problem that a lot of the entire thing was based on just how far can we push before the British complain just look at the entire 11" saga...
 
Plan Z included a major expansion of the Uboat arm, it was just spaced out while they built the surface fleet; maybe have them front load the Uboats instead?

The schedule for making submarines operational was in part due to training the skilled officers and petty officers. Rushing that might not be a good idea.

I can't recall if the Germans lost more than one submarine in training accidents prior to September 1939.
 

Deleted member 1487

The schedule for making submarines operational was in part due to training the skilled officers and petty officers. Rushing that might not be a good idea.

I can't recall if the Germans lost more than one submarine in training accidents prior to September 1939.
They had to speed it up in wartime, they could also start expanding the training apparatus and cut training hours, which pre-war included an around the globe sailing deployment.

This just hits the problem that a lot of the entire thing was based on just how far can we push before the British complain just look at the entire 11" saga...
By 1939 Hitler had renounced the AGNA, which let Plan Z even happen. So they don't really care what the British think by early 1939.
 
Can the Germans actually build more Uboats pre war than they did though? It's specialised work and German industry was already stretched. Anyway Plan Z was only put in place in early 1939 so there's very little time for any extra subs to be built.
 
So they don't really care what the British think by early 1939.
Isn't it a bit late by then?
OTL
U-boat production: (from Uboat.net)
1935 (14)
1936 (21)
1937 (1)
1938 (9)
1939 (18)
1940 (50)
1941 (199)
1942 (238)
1943 (286)
1944 (229)
1945 (91)

Total: 1,156
So it does build up quickly from 39 but by then is it not mostly to late to be ready and worked up for the early war where it would help?
 
Until the Germans take the French ports for U-Boat bases, their ability to get much out of the U-boats is limited. If you don't have a surface fleet, then Norway does not happen and absent the German presence in Norway convoys to Russia become much less dangerous. The Russia convoys always needed some level of significant surface support close or trailing, or larger ships in case the German heavies came out. No heavies, all the RN ships that were tasked to protect against them can be elsewhere doing other useful things. No Tirpitz, all the efforts the deal with her are used elsewhere.

The German naval planners were told plan for war in 1945. Ergo Plan Z. If they had been told 1939, I imagine a dfferent plan would have been created. Also, had Hitler told the Navy that "within about 18 months after war starts you'll have bases in the Bay of Biscay, there would have been a good deal of (discrete) eye rolling.
 

Deleted member 1487

Isn't it a bit late by then?
OTL
U-boat production: (from Uboat.net)
1935 (14)
1936 (21)
1937 (1)
1938 (9)
1939 (18)
1940 (50)
1941 (199)
1942 (238)
1943 (286)
1944 (229)
1945 (91)

Total: 1,156
So it does build up quickly from 39 but by then is it not mostly to late to be ready and worked up for the early war where it would help?
Given the problems with the torpedoes until mid-1940 or so the decisive period was between the Fall of France and the entry of the US into the war. Uboats laid down in 1939 would have been ready by mid/late 1940 and usable in that decisive period. 1939 is about as early as you can get for the build up due to the AGNA in force until then and to avoid the Brits altering their naval construction schedule to start focusing on escorts earlier than IOTL.
 
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