Plan of madagascar:If was activated?

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Because what you are implying is that if we disagree with your plan then we don't want to save the Jews

Understand now?

Eh? How could anyone really think this plan would ''save'' anyone except due to unforeseen consequences from the Nazi POV?

Millions would still die, through the effort of putting this plan into action would bugger the German war-effort in some respects, might even piss Italy off no end too since Italian ports would need to be used to some degree.

Christ knows how the German manage to secure Suez, but I left that aside.
 
Derek, actually informationfan was stating that if you present factual evidence against his idea you must support killing Jews.

For instance, pointing out the fact that this plan could only be considered remotely plausible if the British and Americans have accepted Nazi rule over Europe, which most people would consider a most unfortunate development, is proof that you want to see the Jews killed.
 
do you have a problem with saving jews from certain death? Isn´t it worth to make a plot - if some parts have to be changed that is fine. nobody has the hope to save all, but i still think saving as much as possible sound good for me

Maybe i "insult" you too because i want such plot?

(Rolls eyes) Yes, I'm a big fan of genocide. I burn books on my day off and dream of the day that the Fourth Reich will rise.

I find your apparent lack of willingness to grasp basic mathematics frustrating, but if you check my posts I don't believe you'll find any comments about insults.

We're also not discussing whether killing people is a good thing or not.

Several people (myself included) have pointed out that even if this ASB plan were somehow magically carried out MORE people would almost certainly die than OTL. Are YOU saying that's OK?

I realize that modern society isn't fond of this idea, but in real life even good actions often have negative consequences. Bad or evil actions often have positive consequences. As this is an alternate HISTORY board, here good quality AH accepts that actions have a variety of consequences and consider more than just the ones we happen to like.

For instance, pointing out the fact that this plan could only be considered remotely plausible if the British and Americans have accepted Nazi rule over Europe, which most people would consider a most unfortunate development, is proof that you want to see the Jews killed.

That understatement is worthy of a British accent under fire. :)
 

CalBear

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Why should they kill them?

With peace in the summer of 1940 - the original plan- hundreds of ships are availiable to ship the Jews to Madagascar.

Then theres propaganda for Hitler: Look at me Im such a jew-lover I give them even their own country.

Even if they decide otherwise and use the death squads and extermination camps - thats one year time where Jews are shiped to Madagascar instead of beeing killed.

The possibility was there since it was planned and the plan was serious.


You are joking right?

Madagascar was death on a stick. Forget about the unquestionably hellish condtions the deportees would have faced (a regime that MURDERED around 9 million people isn't going to care about deaths during the voyage), just look at the reality:

The original plan was to transport 4,000,000 Northern Europeans to a tropical island that had, at the time, a total population of 25,000.

There was no infrastructure. NO INFRASTRUCTURE at all.

There was no food source for 4 million people.

There was no source of potable water.

The following diseases were endemic: Malaria, Dengue, Rabies, Plague along with the usual alphabet soup of tropical diseases. None of the deportees had any immunity to these diseases.

The plan called for moving 4+ million people to a location that had been studied for a much smaller scale movement and found to be incapable of supporting 60,000. The actual number of Jews that would have would up being deported would actually have been 7,000,000+. You send 7 MILLION people to an enviroment that can't support 60 thousand and you wind up with 7 million dead deportees.

The plan was idiotic and an utterly transparent plot to obliterate the Jews of Europe while keeping the blood hidden.

BTW: I am locking this thread before we have to start banning people.
 

CalBear

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Nazi apologists have a very short shelf life here.

If you seriously believe that the Madagascar Plan was anything but the Final Solution by a different name you are about a millimeter away from the Apologist line.

I strongly suggest you keep that in mind.

It was not a problem for the allies to build some 10 000 ships during the war and supply them (war ships not counted)

It was no problem for Germany to build over 1000 U Boats during the war and supply them.

Also the Germany Merchant fleet in 1939 was some 2000 ships I think.

Lets say 10% or 200 ships could be used for this plan. Italy, Romania, Vichy France and perhaps Britain contribute another 200 ships.

So u have 400 ships. Each can carry lets say 2500 people.

Lets say the ships need one month there and one month back.

So in 2 Months thats 1 million people. In one year that would be 6 million.

Whats ASB with that?

And today madagascar can supply over 20 million people without any problem. So even if the population rises from some 3 million in 1940 to some 15 million in 1945. It would be hard but doable to feed them all.
 

CalBear

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You REALLY need to spends some addtional time on your postings. I do not know if you are using some sort of translation program or if you are consulting a dictionary, but the way your posts are written is almost insultingly harsh, even whan you are agreeing with someone.

This has to stop.

Becase of the language issues I am going with a final warning. From here on out it's going to be more serious.

CalBear in Mod Mode
Hi,

could you explain why to discuss the madagascar plan is insulting you?
also, what has this to do with sea lion? Nobody even talked about this

if you reread my posts here, you could read that i said, i doubt that all jews could be saved.. i just said, the madagascar plan would save SOME peoples live.

abot the numbers of dead people... someone mentioned 2700 dead people each day in ww2

so i made clear that if this plot save 500.000 to 1 million jews life this war - even if it is delayed for one week (i doubt it would be prolonged for one second) it would be a good exchange
that has nothing to do with pacifism... if you like to insult me - go on. but i really would suggest that you do not bring in things nobody had said.

only a changed plot (i tried to explain one - maybe a bad example, at last i took the basic idea and thought about "how could we save as much jewish peoples live from ending in a gas chamber" and tried to create a plot that could improve this situation.

if this is insulting for you (as it seems to me) then maybe you rethink your position

many people want to discuss possibilites in alternate histories... but in the moment some people want do decide what is allowed to discuss and what is "insulting" them.

in this plot such methods are really insulting - the people who want an alternate history with less gassed jews (i see no hope for gypsies, homosexuals or later on poles and slawes)

The madagascar plan was about "throw the jews out of europe"
as far as i know, that was the most important thing for hitler

but - honestly, i give a shit about hitlers thinking...

please explain why i insult you if i want to save jews from gas chambers...

thank you for this
 
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