Felipe Vieira777's French Civil War Wikibox
so what do you guys think can be improved about the Infobox
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I can't imagine Kerensky winning this in the end. Nor do I think a russian 'republic' would be stable.

But I suppose we'll see
 
I can't imagine Kerensky winning this in the end. Nor do I think a russian 'republic' would be stable.

But I suppose we'll see
I think whichever wins the next round, will see some years of stability unless they bungle too badly actually. Because this thing has been going on for a while now. At some point all that bent up rage and frustration that drives revolutions will have exhausted itself and both high and low will want some calm and stability again and accept any regime that manages that much.
 
Wow. What a tangled web you weave. A real monarchist opposition to the revolution, sowing the seeds of conflict amidst the Bolsheviks...
A tangled web indeed! OTL´s Russian Revolution was a complete mess... as is this analogue.
The anti-Bolsheviks are far more well-consolidated than in OTL... while Lenin and Kerensky aren't a tight alliance by any means.
Good to see Lenin shoot himself in the foot. Also may I say, my brain has me with the Republicans but my heart is giving a salute to the Monarchists. Guess it’s mainly because of just how shady the Republicans are acting, and the righetous anger of Mikhail. Makes you wonder what would of happened if Guchkov hadn’t been such a idiotic asshole and shot Xenia (If you’d failed, don’t you think it be better to have the Tzar alive to maybe give you abit of leniency instead of the automatic bullet for Regicide). The entire story could of gone a lot more smoothly if you had Xenia give a totally not forced abdication speech, abolishing the Tzardom. Sure it would not of been any more legitimate but it would of confused the rest of the country and could of been leveraged to take over the country (also make sure that you don’t have Mikhailovich the Punisher coming after you, if only to keep his wife safe)
I like the idea of divided loyalties. The Tsarists absolutely have a moral advantage- the revolution was absolutely illegal while the Republican Coup gave Kerensky exactly zero legitimacy- but the Republicans are the way forward. Kerensky and his Bolshevik co-belligerents will change Russia and drag it forward (even if they do so over a bed of thorns, dripping blood every. inch. of. the. way.); the Tsarists will do their best to undo not just the 1918 constitution, but the 1906 one. We'll have to see who comes up on top though...

Leaving Xenia or Lvov alive was considered too risky. What if, deciding she's going to die regardless of what she does, she sends out a last message to the Russian people, saying "this is absolutely illegal, you have a duty from God to resist"? That would've been a bloody disaster...

I do like "Mikhailovich the Punisher"-- I may nab that for use in the TL....
My heart is with Lenin, but my mind is with Kerensky, who is probably the best for Russia.

The monarchy is a pathetic collection of arrogant fools and Lenin, while being my favorite character, its too extreme.

A more moderate leftist Russia may be more pragmatic since the start, maybe adopting Denguist-like policies as a end on itself, without having to sell ideological reasonings.

Also, considering its more sober make up, the Russia Republic will have it easier in regard to keeping the military officers on board without the need to do extensive purges, like the USSR did. This is a factor which may prove crucial in the next war against the Reich.

The lack of the Holodomor also comes to mind. It would do wonders for the Russian-Ukranian relationship in the future.

What do you guys think?
That's a decent assesment of the leadership of both sides.
With regards to a moderate-left Russia, we'll have to see. That's all for after the war is fought, and it's barely begun. Besides, there's absolutely no guarantee the Republic will survive...

Ah, how's Russia doing?

Yep. Sounds about right. Bluntly, this makes what is happening in France look like a leisurely stroll between Point A and B.

I've always struggled a lot with the morality of the Russian Revolution. Understanding that the Tsar had completely screwed the country up, even if one believes in monarchy as a superior form of governance (Which I don't) he had foresaken a lot of his duties, and also why Lenin was so popular and did march against him, I've always found myself cold to the man himself. Even in the excellent BBC series 'Eagles of War' which covers a lot of the same time period yourself have examined, Patrick Stewart is excellent as Lenin in a series that is I think charitable towards him. Even then, Lenin's never really...had me on side, per say. I'm on the left somewhere, can't tell you what the name is for what I am because I'm not sure there is one. And still, I've never really found Lenin all that inspiring in what he said and thought. I understand that in those days it was different, but it's near impossible for me to separate the man from the events from which he brought about. There is a curious bit of me that is enjoying that he is struggling here? And I say that as someone who thinks Kerensky is as trustworthy as...well, as anyone, I suppose. All of them are worrisome snakes in the grass, the horse I was tentatively backing was set on fire a while back, and it's all going to be hell.

And poor Alexander. I get a nasty feeling he'd have been better off if he'd have stuck to his archaeology.

Suffice to say, this is a grand chapter. I like that we've had several focusing on France, now on Russia, who knows where next? Hopefully the UK gets a look in at some point!

EDIT: Something I'd like to add here. My reading of your work thus far indicates you have a somewhat cynical view of revolutions on the whole, which I can understand, certainly the reason why I'm not sure as to what part of the spectrum of the left I fall upon is that I have no desire to ever see the bloodshed of an actual revolution that a lot of the leftier-than-thou people on the internet speak of. You have, however, always taken strides to show the generally miserable conditions that the people who have gotten swept up in these movements live in. Their lives and struggles and often bitter injustices that are done to them. They are not wrong for wanting things to change, indeed there must be a change of some sorts is the idea that I get from reading this, which is I think the reason it's so good. Just thought I'd put that out there.
This is a hot mess exponentially larger than France's.
Both of our world's Russian Revolutions were totally amoral. While I'm not one of those fierce monarchists who argue that the Russian Federation, Federal Republic of Germany, etc, are totally illegitimate and that Putin must hand power over to a Romanov (I have exactly zero love for Vladimir Zhirkonovsky, who I believe espouses exactly that), I do believe that the Romanovs had power illicitly and wrongly stolen from them. That was true in OTL February 1917; it's true in TTL May 1919. Gradual reform and working within the system could have saved the dynasty in OTL, and Tsar Michael was taking steps that way in TTL. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that had Michael survived 15 April 1918, he would have broken the General Strike and averted the Republican Coup.

With regards to my own personal feelings on revolution, I find this quote of Orwell's phrases it rather well (it's from Emmanuel Goldstein's tract in 1984):

“The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change places with the High. The aim of the Low, when they have an aim-for it is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside their daily lives -is to abolish all distinctions and create a society in which all men shall be equal.”

Though revolution changes the trappings of government and who's on top and bottom, it almost never changes the basic structure above (and when it does, the changes are almost always for the worst). Russia? Tsarist noblemen and industrialists replaced by Communist party cadres. The Okhrana was replaced by the NKVD/KGB. Just one example...
But at the same time, as you pointed out, revolutions all start with legitimate causes. Russia in OTL 1917, TTL 1919 was a shitty place and the people can't really be blamed for pointing the finger at the Romanovs or thinking that 'huh, maybe these Bolsheviks can bring change'. It's just that they so often (damn near always) go off the rails and eat their own children...

Personally, I'm hoping in the event of a Republican victory that they demand the Germans hand Nicky over for trial over his misrule as Tsar. Followed by the Russian Ambassador getting dragged - so to speak - in front of a raging Kaiser Wilhelm II who a) gives a lecture on the rights of asylum (like Wilhelmina of Orange did IOTL for his sake to the Entente representatives), and then b) declares the ambassador persona non grata for presuming to dictate German internal affairs.

I'm sure the German government won't be too happy about Willy burning bridges (again), but if the Russians did this, well, considering Germany's dominant role in Central Europe, the government would also probably conclude that Willy could just have been more diplomatic about it. Besides, giving in to Russian demands would cause unrest in Germany's satellites, with the Poles and others looking fearfully at a potentially resurgent Russian Bear over their eastern borders. Sure, the Germans are overbearing, to say the least, but at least they have formal independence under Berlin's hegemony, and more than a passing semblance of self-government. That's already more than what they'd get from Moscow/Petrograd.
We'll have to see.
While Germany certainly wouldn't mind a Tsarist victory, they aren't super hostile towards the Republicans (after all, their relations with the House of Romanov are less than stellar). Provided neither Russian faction impinges on Germany's puppet states, Germany won't feel threatened enough to immediately intervene. Kerensky demanding the Tsar's repatriation and execution wouldn't happen- he knows it would only piss off Berlin to no end.

As of right now, like everywhere else in the world, the Germans recognise the Tsarists, not the Republicans. So any ambassador would tow the Tsarist line.

With regards to the Eastern puppets, 'overbearing' beats 'russianbearing' ten times out of ten. They'll happily stick with Germany here... mostly...
How long before the German intervene in Russia or at minimum undermine the new Russian government and support Russian monarchist monarchist with military supplies such as surplus rifles and amunitions, volunteers and money?will we see a UK or Japanese intervention in Russia in TTL in support of Russian monarchist?
That will all depend on internal events in Russia.
Germany would rather see a Tsarist victory but isn't about to intervene on a large scale... arms shipments and such are plausible though. Britain's budgetary concerns (and the lack of French or American support) preclude a North Russian intervention as per OTL. For the Japanese, going into Vladivostok would be percieved as a declaration of war, coming with a high price tag in international support.

I can't imagine Kerensky winning this in the end. Nor do I think a russian 'republic' would be stable.

But I suppose we'll see
We will see indeed-- but I can confirm now that whomever wins this will have some difficulties afterwards...

I think whichever wins the next round, will see some years of stability unless they bungle too badly actually. Because this thing has been going on for a while now. At some point all that bent up rage and frustration that drives revolutions will have exhausted itself and both high and low will want some calm and stability again and accept any regime that manages that much.
I can reveal that even though postwar Russia will be a long way from prosperous and peaceful, there will be an end to the cycle of revolution... for now...

is good now?
oh and sorry for not making the Commanders and leaders Strength and Casualties i don't know the numbers (i mean know Georges Sorel and and some others but that it)
The wikibox is superb-- thank you very much for making it! As you can see, it's been threadmarked.
 
Kerensky demanding the Tsar's repatriation and execution wouldn't happen- he knows it would only piss off Berlin to no end.
This would be a stupid and largely pointless move tbh and would be one that breaks the veil of plausibility. Trying a sitting monarchy like this would serve no purpose. If anything it would diplomatically isolate Russia and make it a pariah state. The Republicans no matter how short sighted and incompetent they are in ttl, are not that stupid. If anything it might galvanize the monarchists against them. They'll already be very likely be pissed when news of the Tsarina's assassination spreads.

Two sitting monarchs assassinated in a row would not bode well for the confidence the Russian people have in this government. I can imagine many commoners still loyal to the monarchy and very much believing in the idea of the monarch as the "Father/Mother" of Russia and its people taking up arms against the Republicans. If anything this tl's white movement is very likely to be more successful than in otl. With the Republicans in power, the "right" wing faction will be dominated by the monarchists and traditionalist while the left with groups like Lenin's Bolsheviks would be assaulting the Republic from the other side. Depending on how bad the Republic performs you might have some sort of de-facto unholy alliance between the left and right against the Republic sort of like what almost happened to the French Third Republic in otl.

but I can confirm now that whomever wins this will have some difficulties afterwards...
Biggest understatement of the century lmao.
 
This would be a stupid and largely pointless move tbh and would be one that breaks the veil of plausibility. Trying a sitting monarchy like this would serve no purpose. If anything it would diplomatically isolate Russia and make it a pariah state. The Republicans no matter how short sighted and incompetent they are in ttl, are not that stupid. If anything it might galvanize the monarchists against them. They'll already be very likely be pissed when news of the Tsarina's assassination spreads.

Two sitting monarchs assassinated in a row would not bode well for the confidence the Russian people have in this government. I can imagine many commoners still loyal to the monarchy and very much believing in the idea of the monarch as the "Father/Mother" of Russia and its people taking up arms against the Republicans. If anything this tl's white movement is very likely to be more successful than in otl. With the Republicans in power, the "right" wing faction will be dominated by the monarchists and traditionalist while the left with groups like Lenin's Bolsheviks would be assaulting the Republic from the other side. Depending on how bad the Republic performs you might have some sort of de-facto unholy alliance between the left and right against the Republic sort of like what almost happened to the French Third Republic in otl.


Biggest understatement of the century lmao.
I agree with all of the above-- not a heck of a lot to add except that Republican propaganda will absolutely undermine the notion of the monarchy as benevolent protectors.
 
Germany would rather see a Tsarist victory but isn't about to intervene on a large scale... arms shipments and such are plausible though. Britain's budgetary concerns (and the lack of French or American support) preclude a North Russian intervention as per OTL. For the Japanese, going into Vladivostok would be percieved as a declaration of war, coming with a high price tag in international support.

Japan's probably content to just watch right now, they have Qingdao, after all. That, and if they want easy pickings from Russia's crumbling empire, there's always the economic assets in Northern Manchuria. That said, the republicans are probably dung as far as the Japanese are concerned, after the Tsarina's murder.
 
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