What if, while captured by pirates at a young age, Caesar was killed by the pirates? We wont focus completely on the "why" he was killed by the pirates, but rather the future of the Republic. Was an empire destined to come? Would Rome stay a republic? Who would lead Rome in the future? Would Pompey and Crassus start a civil war shortly after the peasant revolt?
Pirates Kidnapping Julius Caesar
- Thread starter Willy
- Start date
The Republic was dying long before Caesar. Marius and Sulla has already destroyed the old system, and that had been barely tottering along since Hannibal. Caesar, and Octavian after him, were talented enough to stop total disintegration. Without Caesar either another such figure rises, or the Empire splinters apart under various generals.
I agree about the deterioration of the republic. Do you think Pompey and Crassus would have been the straw that broke the camel's back in Rome? Who do you think would end up on top?
If it came down to those two? Pompey would crush Crassus like a bug. There’s a reason one was called Magnus and the other one got killed on his first campaign outside Italy.
I agree that Pompey definately had the military talent but this Is a giant civil war we're talking about. I'm sure Crassus could find competent leaders for his army. Also I'm sure Crassus would hire many mercenaries to assist him, maybe enough to give him a chance of victory. After all, he was an extremely wealthy man. But I suppose his wealth didnt help him much against the Persians...
What mercenaries though? Rome has steamrolled the Mediterranean at this point. There’s been no serious peer power since Carthage in the SPW. While Crassus might be able to raise a large army Pompey’s will be better led, and almost certainly more experienced as well. And as Caesar showed a superior commander and troops can beat superior numbers, which would be similar to here. What’s more, given Crassus’s OTL failing you’d likely have a similar situation where he attacks from inferior strength, but under his own initiative rather than because the Senate made him, as happened to Pompey.
The Republic was pretty much dead before Caesar crossed the Rubicon, dead as in they couldn't hold elections for the magristrates annually or guarantee the safety of key political figures. It only functioned when someone became a dictator like Sulla or a dictator in all but name as Pompey himself frequently was. In fact Caesar's own dictatorship didn't change much, once he was killed things went back to the old anarchic ways and it really took all the key players other than Octavian to be eliminated in the wars and proscriptions to reach a settlement. How Pompey operated anticipated Octavian's settlement (keep the forms but have a strongman giving directions from the wings) to a large extent.
I do agree that Pompey would need a sort of figurehead to act through but it would probably just end about as well as it did with Caesar.
Perhaps mercenaries from Gaul? I'm sort of out of my comfort zone, I'm normally prepared for 20th century discussion. I dont know much about Rome but I find this is a good way to learn, so thank you. I agree with everything else you've said.
Heh. Knowing him, he seduces both the captain and his lieutenant, gets them to fight over him, and shivs the victor in his sleep.
Whether he then escapes in the confusion, or takes command and unites all the pirates in one force which he the uses to defeat some rebel general, and leads the pirates back to Rome under amnesty to become part of the Roman Navy, or something, i'm not sure.
But whatever happens it's more likely to be like the plot of a penny-dreadful than 'they killed him'
I don't know if it would be that simple. It depends on when the civil war broke out and what the power dynamics in Rome were like leading up to that. Even though the fall of the Republic is the best documented period of Roman history, the way Crassus operated makes it more-or-less impossible to know how powerful he actually was (which was probably by design). But in this hypothetical "duumvirate" TL, Crassus would certainly have the backing of the optimates, who were disgusted by Pompey's rapid rise to power (he held the office of consul at an illegal young age and had held no other magistracy before). The fault lines would likely see the elder statesmen, patrician scions, and indebted property-owners side with Crassus while Pompey would have a following primarily from his comrades from the Civil war and Mithridatic war. This war would probably be seen as more-or-less a continuation of the Marius-Sulla civil war, with Crassus assuming control of the core of Sulla's coalition. Pompey meanwhile, would likely court the plebeian demagogues who were so active IOTL (Milo, Curio, Marc Antony, etc.) in order to disrupt Crassus' influence in the city. Not sure how the civil war would play out, but my money is on Crassus. He was a savvy operator and had distinguished military credentials, plus the backing of most of the senate; but then again, so did Pompey IOTL, so who's to say.
Another important feature that is often overlooked is that when Pompey assumed the governorship of Spain after his second consulship, he never actually went to the province. This seems minor, but the constitutional settlements of Augustus were heavily based on this earlier precedent whereby a proconsul may govern a distant province through his appointed legates for a number of years.