Pilgrims land on Manhattan

It's been repeated often that the Pilgrims were supposed to go to Virginia, and ended up in New England because they went off course. People think, 'oh, they must mean Jamestown', but that's not really true - the Pilgrims actually intended to settle in the Hudson River area; Virginia's borders stretched much further north then. The Pilgrims hit the Americas at Plymouth and found too many shoals to sail south easily, so they settled there.

So.... what if they had been only a few degrees further south? They could have found the mouth of the Hudson and settled there. Now, at this time the Dutch had only a bare handful of trading posts in the area - their first real settlement in the rivermouth, on Governor's Island, wouldn't be founded until 1624, and New Amsterdam wouldn't be founded until 1625. If the English are already there... I really can't see the Dutch bothering to fight over it. They'd probably just move east and try settling New England.

So... what happens next? If the Pilgrims land there, the nexus of the Puritan colonies is going to be *New York. Given the Puritan propensity for persecution, splinter colonies will probably spring up in OTL Connecticut and New Jersey, which might bring them into conflict with the Dutch. OTOH, the English might appreciate having them in New England as a buffer between them and the French. What happens as the colony develops? The Hudson valley is going to attract immigrants, but they probably won't take kindly to Puritan religious standards.

What would happen to Pennsylvania? The two anchors of English settlement would be closer together, so it will probably be settled faster, but how is it organized? If the Puritan splinter colonies reach down to the Delaware River, it might not have sea access unless it takes land *Maryland would get.

What's the opinion of the board? Would England try to conquer Dutch NE? How would the colonial economy develop? Any significant butterflies in English history in the next 50 years?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
New Jersey would probably end up split in two or three splinter colonies indefinitely instead of short-lived "West/East" Jersey of OTL, along with Vermont (which was IOTL considered part of NY until independence).

Part of Connecticut might end up in this Puritan heartland if we just swap around who runs what, but it's not certain.
 

Japhy

Banned
I thought the Massachusetts Bay Company was a separate project. Wouldn't they still settle in the same place OTL?

The Massachusetts Bay Colony was a separate project (And thats why Plymouth was its own colony for years after) But they only went to what would be Boston because there was another English settlement a short distance away. If the Pilgrims are on Manhattan, you're liable to see the Mass Bay Colonists land either on the Long Island Sound at New Haven or somewhere on the New Jersey Coast.

The rest of what Hobelhouse said is pretty plausible. Pennsylvania will probably be settled early, especially if the Delaware Valley is never looked at by the Swedes for being too close to English Colonies. The Dutch probably will go to New England and not being between anything, are probably in a better situation.

Of course, this also means that Thomas Morton's Colony at Merrymount if it still forms, isn't going to be taken down by a military column from Plymouth... Theoretically New England could be still settled by Englishmen, and these ones being less fantastical religiously, and interested in developing relations with the Indians.
 
In fairness to the Pilgrims, could I note that they showed no particular interest in persecuting anybody. The Puritans did, but as already pointed out, they were entirely separate from the Mayflower people.
 
Okay, it's too late to get my head around this - only here because I couldn't fall asleep.
But I'll point out, because it seems to have been missed, that the Dutch were in Albany (no idea how big their presence was) as early as 1614. So there might be more Dutch/English competition for control of the Hudson/Mohawk area. Perhaps a Dutch colony starting somewhere around West Point and running up to Lake Champlain, and also west along the Mohawk. Strategically located for trading between French, English and Native Americans. Southern New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, etc., become English. And someone's presumably going to want the Boston/Providence area sooner rather than later.
 
It's been repeated often that the Pilgrims were supposed to go to Virginia, and ended up in New England because they went off course.
I Heard that they landed in Mass. because they were out of Beer.
 
The Pilgrims had spent years in Holland prior to the decision to migrate to the New World, so they did not have many religious issues with the Calvinist Dutch. What they did worry about was their children becoming "Dutch" as opposed to "English." Had they arrived at New Amsterdam they would likely have only stayed there a short time, while seeking a place to establish their own community. The London Adventurers that bankrolled their voyage expected a settlement in Virginia, and likely to that end the Pilgrims would have sought land closer to Jamestown. The entrance to Delaware Bay would seem to be a logical choice, and would have forestalled Swedish settlement as well. Such a location would have provided easy coastal trade with both the Dutch and Virginia, and an obvious trade route into the interior up the Delaware.

By the way, the Pilgrims in the first generation had rather good relations with the Indians. At one point, they actually tried and hung an English trader for murdering a local Indian, something that seldom happened elsewhere. Things got worse after the first thirty years or so, when population pressures led to violence on both sides.
 
The first winter was so miserable because the Pilgrims were poorly equipped, having been forced to sell many necessary items to pay certain bills and leaving more behind when the Speedwell proved unable to make the trip.

Then they finally arrived in late December(!) but had the good fortune of landing in an area ripe for settlement, the native community having been all but wiped out by a European disease but leaving fields ready for use.

If they go to Manhattan will fields set for planting be available and not in use? Will they survive if they spend another month or so sailing and then looking for a place to settle?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Pilgrims had spent years in Holland prior to the decision to migrate to the New World, so they did not have many religious issues with the Calvinist Dutch. What they did worry about was their children becoming "Dutch" as opposed to "English." Had they arrived at New Amsterdam they would likely have only stayed there a short time, while seeking a place to establish their own community.

The Pilgrims problem with the Netherlands wasn't really that their children became Dutch, but that they didn't do very well there, and many of them was forced to emigrate to other areas of Netherlands to find a living slowly destroying their community. I don't think they would have a problem with living under Dutch rule in America.
 
Maybe we could see something like this by 1750, where New Holland and New Sweden are able to survive due to not being between two growing English colonies. New Holland is part of OTL New England and New Sweden is in Maine. The French control many not settled lands as OTL, but has complete control of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence. As I assume English immigrants will arrive in the same amount as OTL, the English has expanded more to the West. The rest of America remains the same.

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