Photos from Featherston's Confederacy/ TL-191

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Alternatehistoryguy47, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Heh, nice catch with these pictures here. They're taken from the OTL Spanish Civil War, but using one's imagination I can totally see this being how Confederates in the south do the Featherston Fist salute. Pictures like this add a sense of believability and a good visualization of certain things.
     
  2. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    National Personifications --- TL-191 -- The Confederacy's Personifications

    @Allochronian @Historyman 14 @pattontank12 @cortz#9

    Okay guys, here's a fun one. So, the United States has Columbia and Uncle Sam. The United Kingdom has Britannia and John Bull. The Russian Empire has Mother Russia. France has Marianne. See where I'm going with this? They're all the personifications of their respective countries in some way or another. In the United States' case Uncle Sam is more representative of the government of the US, while Columbia herself is more representative of the country as a whole.

    You see them and other national personifications in many things - propaganda, political cartoons, advertisements, media, and so on. Seems that every major country had some kind of national personification of their nation at one point or another.

    So, that's my question - what would be the national personification(s) of the Confederate States of America? What would be the iconic symbols and look of the Confederacy represented in propaganda and political cartoons and such. Would they be a man or a woman or both? What would their names be? What would they look like?

    ColumbiaStahrArtwork.jpg

    ^^^ --- Columbia - Female personification of the United States.

    687e8309c4607af5a1a67b80eae62c14.jpg

    ^^^ --- Britannia, female personification of Great Britain.

    triple_entente.jpg

    ^^^ --- Marianne (France), Britannia (Great Britain), and Mother Russia (Russian Empire).

    gettyimages-529286847-1024x1024.jpg

    ^^^ --- Mother Britannia shakes hands with Daughter Columbia.

    446px-Uncle_Sam_(pointing_finger).jpg 0d47552189332b3d68e0e8df97ef8161.jpg

    ^^^ --- Uncle Sam and John Bull portrayed in cartoons and propaganda.

    tumblr_ltb2f497ro1qg090co1_500.jpg
    mev-11045671.jpg

    ^^^ --- Various iterations of John Bull and Marianne.

    Republique-allegorie-2.jpg

    ^^^ --- Personification of the short lived Second Spanish Republic (1931-1939)

    So that's the question guys. What would a male and female personification of the Confederacy look like? And what would be there names?
     
  3. oshron Emperor of Rplegacy

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    i'd imagine the Confederacy's national personification would be the ironically-named Lady Freedom, which would play well into the Freedom Party later; if nothing else, she'd work as a decent Southern parallel to Lady Liberty. there's probably some Classical deity who could be used as the basic model (like how Lady Liberty is ultimately the Roman goddess Libertas) but i don't know which that would be off the top of my head
     
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  4. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    There is actually something like this on an banknote from 1862.

    Dixie striking down the North.

    [​IMG]

    I think an good female personification of the Confederacy would be an Ceres/ Minerva/Liberty looking woman.

    An male would be George Washington himself.
     
  5. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


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    Johnny Reb

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Southern Belle Sallie
     
  6. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    All of these are very good references and models for a female personification of the Confederacy. And I like the fact that the focus is on Roman or Greek deities as a possible source based what is used in banknotes and such. It also matches up with what the South might actually do in terms of that kind of thing too. They'd want something that looks noble and righteous and such, their own version of Lady Liberty, but different than that of the United States' Columbia (name her Dixie??).

    Actually, another source would be from the Virginia Seal and Coat of Arms.

    57968_va_seal_md.gif

    ^^^ --- It is said that the woman is supposed to be the Roman virtue of "Virtus" on the obverse side, battle ready and victorious. She would represent valor and courage - the willingness to fight tyranny and the spirt to protect the state.

    350px-GreatSealOfTheCommonwealthOfVirginiaReverse.jpg

    ^^^ --- On the reverse side we have three Roman goddesses - Libertas, Ceres, and Aeternitas. Ceres represents agriculture, while Libertas is for in liberty and Aeternitas is for eternity - essentially prosperity and peace for Virginia.

    In fact, since you guys already mentioned the goddesses Ceres and Libertas already, it is very interesting to note that they are represented here as well, so I think it lends some good reasons as to where the Confederacy might get its female personification.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  7. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yeah, Johnny Reb is undeniably symbolic of the typical Confederate soldier. I would imagine that after the War of Secession however the name "Johnny Reb" might carry with it a certain derogatory tone to it, with US soldiers still referring to Confederate soldiers and "Johnnies".

    However, for the South, I think the image of the typical Confederate soldier would lend itself immensely to a male personification of the Confederacy in general, but the Army in particular. The look of a Confederate soldier would remain the same, but perhaps the "Reb" would be dropped in later years... or kept out of pride or something.

    Johnny could very well be a personification opposite or akin to Uncle Sam in the United States in TL-191. "Uncle Johnny", "Cousin Johnny", "Sergeant Johnny", "Mister Johnny", "Private Johnny", whatever you want it to be.
     
  8. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Confederates had an lot of Roman/Classical stuff for their money. (Plus Proserpina, Tellus, Moneta, Thetis.) Plus what you show adds to it. As for her name. (I Wish I Was in Dixie pretty much popularized the term for the Southland and cast it into iron, and everyone from day one loved it from day one. Even in 1860, the secessionists was alredy using it and the national anthem for Jeff Davis.) 'Dixie' may be the term for the combine Roman Goddesses of Libertas, Ceres, and Aeternitas. (And Virtus may be her own thing.)

    I can very well the Confederates keeping 'Johnny Reb' as the Picture of the Underdog fighting the odds and winning, and the Southern Boy. ('Why we fight? Yankee, you down here!') 'Cousin Johnny' sounds pretty nice.
     
  9. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised no one has yet given their opinion on a Southern Belle as a female personification of the Confederacy.
     
  10. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Well yeah! If you're getting away from classical interpretations and into something more akin to the era in terms of dress, the image of the Southern Belle is would be a personification of the Confederacy, probably more along the lines of Marianne in terms of her dressing in clothing from that specific era rather than looking like a classical deity.

    I think in the case of TL-191 the image of the Southern Belle as a personification of the Confederacy can work well - instead of an Antebellum look though, we could probably get something more along the lines of a late-19th century to early 20th century look - what the rich the southern ladies would have been wearing in that time and such. She would in this case represent the Confederacy's high society perhaps? Or its culture?
     
  11. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yeah, I think no matter how you spin it a classical looking personification of the Confederacy would very likely be called "Dixie" perhaps. I was thinking something that could have the Latin "-ia" at the end of it, but it wouldn't work.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  12. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    Honesty, the Southern Belle would almost always overall represent High Society of the South, but I can see effort of an version that showcases all the of the Confederacy.
     
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  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    So, we have Dixie, Sallie, and Johnny. Unless there is a more classical sounding name for a classically inspired version of the Confederacy, Dixie might just be the right name. Political cartoons would read, in bold font, "COLUMBIA VS. DIXIE - the DUEL of TITANS".

    Johnny would be used for anything relating to the Army or other political matters in satirical cartoons, much like Uncle Sam is portrayed that way. Sallie, the archetypical southern belle of the "Era of Good Feelings" (1882-1914) would be used probably in satirical or political cartoons relating to culture or society, particularly with other nations' personifications.
     
  14. Danthefan28 Well-Known Member

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    COLUMBIA V DIXIE: DAWN OF JUSTICE
     
  15. RaspingLeech Active Member

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    I like the idea of "Cousin Johnny" as a foil to Uncle Sam. Brotherly states standing alongside each other vs the fatherly federal government figure in a way.
     
  16. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Photograph of Charlie White, sometime after the First Great War

    Charles "Charlie" White was an African-American who served in the United States Navy as a cook.

    Born on October 12, 1890, White was born into a Black family in Boston who could trace their lineage of freedom back since before the War of Secession. From a young age, White wanted to work near the sea as a sailor. However, he was only able to get manual labor jobs at Boston Harbor. Despite experiencing racial prejudice from White Americans, he was able to find a group of fishermen who were not hateful towards him, or at least kept their comments to themselves.

    Just before the start of the First Great War, White was able to obtain a cooking position onboard the Ripple with the help of George Enos, a fellow fisherman who would always defend him against hecklers. Among the crew, he gained a strong admiration for his cooking skills.

    He and his crew were captured by Confederates during GWI and were made into P.O.W.'s until they were exchanged. After the end of the war, White joined the U.S. Navy and was sent to San Diego where he became a senior cook.

    When the Confederates invaded the United States in 1941, White was in the Bahamas on the USS New Mexico. During the Confederate attack on Nassau, White was able to operate an anti-aircraft gun when most of the other sailors were killed. White was able to shoot down several Confederate Houndogs before he was forced to abandoned ship when the New Mexico was sunk at the Port of Nassau.

    White was presumed to be dead or taken prisoner by the Confederates, however, he and a group of surviving sailors were eventually found in 1943 after the U.S. retook the Bahamas. The small group were able to travel by a lifeboat toward the smaller islands that were part of the Bahamas. They were specifically found on the island of Great Inagua.

    After the end of the Second Great War, he, along with other Blacks such as Cassius Madison and Spartacus, became a national war hero.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  17. Alpha-King98760 Aku's most favorite assassin, babe!

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    [​IMG]
    African-American actor James Baskett accepts his Oscar for his role as the voice actor for the main character in Walt Disney’s classic “Remus and Janice” (internationally known as “Song of Dixie”) in 1949.
    The Disney animated feature film “Remus and Janice” is about the struggle of two Blacks in the Confederate States of America, a man named Remus Simmons and his niece Janice, after they and their families are rounded up by the Confederate authorities and taken to Camp Determination from their home in Montgomery, Alabama. The majority of the film takes place inside Camp Determination and all the horrors that happened within its walls, but Remus sings a happy little song called “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Da”. That song is one of the things that gives everyone the family hope – the other things giving them hope is being together and rumours of Yankee troops getting closer to winning the war and getting closer to Determination. However, after their families are killed by camp guards in the third act amid a Union air raid near the camp that Remus and Janice are able to escape Determination (the air raid interrupts their own executions and allows them to escape amid the chaos that results from the attack).

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    The Simmons family at the opening of the film (Remus is the portly man on the far left & Janice is the little girl in the centre with her parents wearing a spring green dress and a yellow paper crown) – this screenshot is from the 2009 remastered edition for the 60th anniversary of the movie’s release.​

    As the movie reaches its climax/ending with the two protagonists desperately trying to evade recapture by the camp’s search parties, Remus and Janice are picked up elements of General Abner Dowling’s Eleventh Army with their pursuers winding up getting captured themselves by Union soldiers. The film ends with Remus and Janice hugging each other with tears streaming down their faces, they are tears of joy because their nightmare is finally over and sorrow because their loved ones are all gone forever and they now only have each other. As the credits roll, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah is played once again.

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    Hunting dogs used by the Camp Determination search parties to track down Remus and Janice upon their escape.​

    Upon the completion of the first screening to the public at a theatre in New York City in 1949, Walt Disney and Baskett himself came out and revealed that the film was based off the real life experiences of Baskett and his niece, Clara, during the Second Great War with only their names & that of their family changed. The movie would be highly successful, but also controversial for its graphic depiction of the human suffering at Camp Determination and would be regarded as the black sheep of Disney’s animated features for decades to come but would gain a huge fanbase following its 60th anniversary rerelease and be hailed as a cult classic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  18. oshron Emperor of Rplegacy

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    too smoothly-drawn and too many gradients for 1949 :p
     
  19. Alpha-King98760 Aku's most favorite assassin, babe!

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    It’s from the 2009 remastered edition for the 60th anniversary. :p
     
  20. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    Black Soldiers of the Great Wars
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    U.S. West Philly Warriors, ca. 1917

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    U.S. Boston Berzerkers, ca. 1943

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    Confederate Black soldiers, 1917

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    Private Arthur Roberts, Black British soldier of Scotland (1897-1982)

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    Black French soldiers during the First Great War

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    Black German soldier during the First Great War

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    Colonial African German soldier art

    Sources:
    https://blackpresence.co.uk/remembrance-day-black-asian-soldiers-in-ww1/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Bullard
    https://blackpresence.co.uk/good-man-scotlands-black-tommy/
    https://www.harlemworldmagazine.com/harlem-hellfighters-marching-on-fifth-avenue-1919/
    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/imperial-germany-austro-hungary/imperial-german-eagle-29133/
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019