Yup, Dresden and Berlin would work for reference images for a battle-scarred Pittsburgh if you want to German cities. Actually, Aachen, Manila, and Cologne would work too.
Last edited:
Photos from Featherston's Confederacy/ TL-191
- Thread starter Alternatehistoryguy47
- Start date
-
- Tags
- the rising sun
Yup, Dresden and Berlin would work for reference images for a battle-scarred Pittsburgh if you want to German cities. Actually, Aachen, Manila, and Cologne would work too.
American soldiers outside of Grove City in the opening scene of famed war drama “Columbus”. The movie depicts the 7th Infantry Division being trapped in the Columbus Pocket.
@Allochronian @Historyman 14 @cortz#9 @MarchingThroughGeorgia
Another note to consider is this - Pittsburgh, unlike Stalingrad, is quite hilly and there are many hills and plateaus scattered across the city and the surrounding area that have buildings and homes built on top of them or along the slopes. While Stalingrad may have had Mameyev Kurgan as its defining geographical high-ground, Pittsburgh would have multiple potentially strategic points on both the Northside and Southside in particular, with many of them having good views of the Downtown area itself - good ground for observation and spotting.
VVV --- Below are some pictures of modern-day Volgograd (Formerly Stalingrad and Tsaritsyn)
^^^ --- As you can see, the terrain is generally flat and featureless, owing to the fact that city sits right in the middle of the Eurasian Steppe --- good country for tank battles and maneuver warfare.
By comparison Pittsburgh sits at the junction of three major rivers in a region defined by low lying plateaus, hills, and forests. In fact Western Pennsylvania as a whole is somewhat defined by its difference to Eastern Pennsylvania, owing to the fact that the Appalachian Mountains to the east create a significant and rather hilly divide.
^^^ --- Western Pennsylvania, The Allegheny Plateau region, of which Pittsburgh is part of. Very scenic in peace time, but during a war can be good terrain for defense.
Pittsburgh itself, and especially some of its neighborhoods, are defined by its hills. In fact there are sections of the city where steps entirely replace roads, with sections of steps classified by the city as streets.
![steps-of-pittsburgh-5[2].jpg](https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/steps-of-pittsburgh-5-2-jpg.449167/ "steps-of-pittsburgh-5[2].jpg")
On the Southside of Pittsburgh for example you have:
Duquesne Heights / Mt. Washington:
^^^ --- Some of the most scenic views of Pittsburgh are taken here. If the Confederates and Yankees are going to fight for the city, then the Duquesne Heights and the adjacent Mt. Washington would be one of its most strategic points. I dare say it could be TL-191's version of Mameyev Kurgan, but many of the hills here in Pittsburgh qualify as being important too. It would have a commanding view of the Downtown area and the Northside, overlooking The Point itself, the very intersection of the three rivers that divide the city, as well as overlooking any potential crossing points into Downtown.
Southside Slopes:
^^^ --- Another commanding view of the city from the south-side. Overlooking a stretch of the Monongahela River, this would be another potentially strategic point where Confederates and Yankees would fight over. If the Yankees lost this area, they'd be exposed defending the Southside Flats area.
On the Northside of Pittsburgh for example, you have:
Spring Hill - St. John's Lutheran Cemetery:
^^^ --- On the Northside you have one of several hills overlooking the Downtown area and the Allegheny River. This was the area in which pockets of Confederate resistance were still capable of fighting even after the official surrender. Along with Troy Hill and other locations, this would be good defensive ground with views of the city looking south. They would make good observation points for artillery strikes into the city, leaving any defending units in the downtown area highly exposed.
The Northside and Southside of Pittsburgh have mostly residential areas, likely to house and accommodate the working class population working in the steel mills here. Two or three story brick houses or wooden residential houses, combined with tenement buildings and and flats, would make up the urban area that the Yankees and Confederates would fight in. Hilly terrain would make up another feature of the fighting with defenders having a distinctive advantage if holed up in buildings. The attackers would literally be fighting an up-hill battle. Tanks would be extremely vulnerable here, exposed to close quarters fighting and hilly terrain. They would likely be used as direct fire support to soften up fortified positions, with ample amounts of infantry support.
I can see mortars and artillery also playing a very key role in the fighting here due to the nature of the terrain. Artillery in the Battle of Stalingrad also played a key role, but here in Pittsburgh the nature of the terrain and the unique layout of the rivers means that artillery support for the Yankees has to be handled very differently --- they don't have the benefit of putting all their artillery on one side of a river, like the Soviets did at Stalingrad. Confederate forces from the east would be attacking in a pincer from the North and South likely on either sides of the Ohio River (with this river dividing their forces potentially), with the primary goal of reaching "The Point" (where all three rivers meet) and the Downtown area. We may be seeing artillery employed in direct fire, point blank action depending on how the Yankees and Confederates use and deploy their guns, but for sure mortars in the battle would come in handy.
And of course grenades, SMGs, Featherston Fizzes, and sniper rifles would be used here as well. In fact the the role of the sniper here may be something a little different and deployed in a different way. The tall buildings in the Downtown area can also be used for artillery spotting and sniping, but would also be prime targets for snipers and artillery as well. Sniping and counter-sniping would take on a different form here since the terrain is different.
Anyway that's what I got to share here.
Another note to consider is this - Pittsburgh, unlike Stalingrad, is quite hilly and there are many hills and plateaus scattered across the city and the surrounding area that have buildings and homes built on top of them or along the slopes. While Stalingrad may have had Mameyev Kurgan as its defining geographical high-ground, Pittsburgh would have multiple potentially strategic points on both the Northside and Southside in particular, with many of them having good views of the Downtown area itself - good ground for observation and spotting.
VVV --- Below are some pictures of modern-day Volgograd (Formerly Stalingrad and Tsaritsyn)
^^^ --- As you can see, the terrain is generally flat and featureless, owing to the fact that city sits right in the middle of the Eurasian Steppe --- good country for tank battles and maneuver warfare.
By comparison Pittsburgh sits at the junction of three major rivers in a region defined by low lying plateaus, hills, and forests. In fact Western Pennsylvania as a whole is somewhat defined by its difference to Eastern Pennsylvania, owing to the fact that the Appalachian Mountains to the east create a significant and rather hilly divide.
^^^ --- Western Pennsylvania, The Allegheny Plateau region, of which Pittsburgh is part of. Very scenic in peace time, but during a war can be good terrain for defense.
Pittsburgh itself, and especially some of its neighborhoods, are defined by its hills. In fact there are sections of the city where steps entirely replace roads, with sections of steps classified by the city as streets.
On the Southside of Pittsburgh for example you have:
Duquesne Heights / Mt. Washington:
^^^ --- Some of the most scenic views of Pittsburgh are taken here. If the Confederates and Yankees are going to fight for the city, then the Duquesne Heights and the adjacent Mt. Washington would be one of its most strategic points. I dare say it could be TL-191's version of Mameyev Kurgan, but many of the hills here in Pittsburgh qualify as being important too. It would have a commanding view of the Downtown area and the Northside, overlooking The Point itself, the very intersection of the three rivers that divide the city, as well as overlooking any potential crossing points into Downtown.
Southside Slopes:
^^^ --- Another commanding view of the city from the south-side. Overlooking a stretch of the Monongahela River, this would be another potentially strategic point where Confederates and Yankees would fight over. If the Yankees lost this area, they'd be exposed defending the Southside Flats area.
On the Northside of Pittsburgh for example, you have:
Spring Hill - St. John's Lutheran Cemetery:
^^^ --- On the Northside you have one of several hills overlooking the Downtown area and the Allegheny River. This was the area in which pockets of Confederate resistance were still capable of fighting even after the official surrender. Along with Troy Hill and other locations, this would be good defensive ground with views of the city looking south. They would make good observation points for artillery strikes into the city, leaving any defending units in the downtown area highly exposed.
The Northside and Southside of Pittsburgh have mostly residential areas, likely to house and accommodate the working class population working in the steel mills here. Two or three story brick houses or wooden residential houses, combined with tenement buildings and and flats, would make up the urban area that the Yankees and Confederates would fight in. Hilly terrain would make up another feature of the fighting with defenders having a distinctive advantage if holed up in buildings. The attackers would literally be fighting an up-hill battle. Tanks would be extremely vulnerable here, exposed to close quarters fighting and hilly terrain. They would likely be used as direct fire support to soften up fortified positions, with ample amounts of infantry support.
I can see mortars and artillery also playing a very key role in the fighting here due to the nature of the terrain. Artillery in the Battle of Stalingrad also played a key role, but here in Pittsburgh the nature of the terrain and the unique layout of the rivers means that artillery support for the Yankees has to be handled very differently --- they don't have the benefit of putting all their artillery on one side of a river, like the Soviets did at Stalingrad. Confederate forces from the east would be attacking in a pincer from the North and South likely on either sides of the Ohio River (with this river dividing their forces potentially), with the primary goal of reaching "The Point" (where all three rivers meet) and the Downtown area. We may be seeing artillery employed in direct fire, point blank action depending on how the Yankees and Confederates use and deploy their guns, but for sure mortars in the battle would come in handy.
And of course grenades, SMGs, Featherston Fizzes, and sniper rifles would be used here as well. In fact the the role of the sniper here may be something a little different and deployed in a different way. The tall buildings in the Downtown area can also be used for artillery spotting and sniping, but would also be prime targets for snipers and artillery as well. Sniping and counter-sniping would take on a different form here since the terrain is different.
Anyway that's what I got to share here.
@Alterwright....
You have really draw attention to the differences between Pittsburgh and Volgograd. Of 'skyscraper warfare', massive battles over the river and the bridges, and...
Like in Hades would I fight up any of those hills. I won't be cut to bits by one well place machine gunner who only have to aim down and fires, or step on an landmine I thought was a rock. Same for the point blank artillery strikes. One can only picture the holes and crater from mortars and artillery.
Or even fighting in St. John's Lutheran Cemetery.
You think one tactic could be...knocking down the taller buildings and skyscraper to block the enemy path, or even the Confederates sick their ships in the river to block the Union own movement.
You have really draw attention to the differences between Pittsburgh and Volgograd. Of 'skyscraper warfare', massive battles over the river and the bridges, and...
Like in Hades would I fight up any of those hills. I won't be cut to bits by one well place machine gunner who only have to aim down and fires, or step on an landmine I thought was a rock. Same for the point blank artillery strikes. One can only picture the holes and crater from mortars and artillery.
Or even fighting in St. John's Lutheran Cemetery.
You think one tactic could be...knocking down the taller buildings and skyscraper to block the enemy path, or even the Confederates sick their ships in the river to block the Union own movement.
US soldiers from the infamous 'Lavochkin's Looters' unit in Hardeeville, c. 1945.
US Army personnel in dress uniforms prior to commencing Remembrance Day parade, 2018.
US Militiawomen in Pittsburgh, celebrating the retreat of the CS Army. While the US military did not accept women at this point in time, large numbers of women joined irregular militia units in areas on the frontlines or under CS occupation, proving themselves more than capable of fighting and killing men. Risking death and worse, women such as these played a significant role in fighting back the Confederate advance.
US Navy F-17 'Corsair', the main carrier fighter of the USN since the mid-1990s.
I'm impressed by your attention to detail, Alterwright.
Perhaps Dr. Turtledove was unaware of how unique the fighting would have been between the Confederates and Americans when he chose Pittsburgh. Instead of it being a complete parallelism to Stalingrad, the Battle of Pittsburgh actually stands out on its own as something very unique in TL-191!
In your opinion, do you think Harrisburg would have been a better candidate for an actual Stalingrad-like battle?
Would Harrisburg be as important a target as Pittsburgh? The terrain of a military target have often been terrible but if the target itself is considered important enough, it will be attacked.
So this is a weird idea for a potential future of Timeline 191.
Weird TL-191 idea: The United States collapses during the second decade of the 21st century ala Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. With the Union being reduced to a shadow of its former self, though it wasn't enough to put an end to the "Shadow War" with Germany and Japan still fiercely competing against each other through their proxies. Soon followed by India filling the void left behind by the US. Eventually the rump United States finds itself getting a second wind, under the leadership of a charismatic, quietly revaunchist figure. Even going so far has to reclaim Western Canada following the Canadian Civil War during the mid 21st century. Eventually the "Shadow War" spreads to the stars themselves has the Great Powers begin to seek new worlds for themselves before their rivals can. Meanwhile Japan slowly finds itself severely overstretched and now facing a sizable insurgency across their Asian territories. Most notably a growing Marxist-Technocracy movement that has spread across the empire from the old remnants of the Chinese and Vietnamese Communists. Inevitably Atomic War finally breaks out between the Great Powers throughout the solar system and beyond. Though eventually two new Great Power's rise from the Ashes. The United Empire created by the remnants of the German military and royal family that managed to unite absorb the surviving American, Russian, Brazilian and other "western" nations under their rule in the "Galactic West" and the "People's Technate" a radical revolutionary state formed the remnants of the Japanese Empire and Republic of India that found themselves overthrown by a Technocratic revolution.
Hindu soldiers fighting in the Battle of Basra, 1941. Great Britain's desires for revenge against Germany was match by her desires for revenge at the 'Sick Man of Europe'. The Ottoman Empire. Between the horrible failure of Gallipoli, victories against the Turks that prove pointless and the defeat of the Siege of Kut, London had long hope to be able to cut up the Ottomans and gain control of the rich oil fields.
Despite the Sliver Shirts clampdown on the Indian Independence movement, Indian soldiers would server with valor and honor in GW2.
British soldiers lead by an officer fighting in Southern Palestine. 1942. The Sinai and Palestine Campaign of Great War 2 would see great barrel battles between the British and the Turks given the flat terrain rivaling that of North America and the Low Lands of Europe. However, success turn to stalemate as the Russian Empire failed to make any progress in Caucasus and the tide in Europe favoring Germany and Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans would put out various Arab Revolts and push the British back, often bloodily.
The British hopes of taking Jerusalem and the Ottoman hopes of taking the Suez Canal both turn to be false with the end of the Second Great War in July 1944.
This theater would also be known for the combat between Pro-British Jews, Pro-Ottoman Jews, and Pro-British Arabs.
Despite the Sliver Shirts clampdown on the Indian Independence movement, Indian soldiers would server with valor and honor in GW2.
British soldiers lead by an officer fighting in Southern Palestine. 1942. The Sinai and Palestine Campaign of Great War 2 would see great barrel battles between the British and the Turks given the flat terrain rivaling that of North America and the Low Lands of Europe. However, success turn to stalemate as the Russian Empire failed to make any progress in Caucasus and the tide in Europe favoring Germany and Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans would put out various Arab Revolts and push the British back, often bloodily.
The British hopes of taking Jerusalem and the Ottoman hopes of taking the Suez Canal both turn to be false with the end of the Second Great War in July 1944.
This theater would also be known for the combat between Pro-British Jews, Pro-Ottoman Jews, and Pro-British Arabs.
@Historyman 14 @cortz#9 @Allochronian @MarchingThroughGeorgia
Yes. Pittsburgh is a different urban beast to tackle, with a very unique battlefield environment compared to Stalingrad, but just as deadly. The Yankees will have a hard time defending the city from attack, but the Confederates will find it equally hard to fight their way into the city as well.
As you said, the hilly terrain will prove to be very difficult. If the city was bombed and bombarded just as heavily as Stalingrad was, we would be looking at a city that is highly suited to the defender, using the broken ground for cover. A lot of the buildings in Pittsburgh, however, especially in the residential areas, are made of wood and brick. It is highly possible that by the time the Confederates and Yankees square off in the city proper, they would be fighting over the flattened ruins of homes, over uneven ground and upon broken hills strewn with bricks and splintered wood. The few studier buildings that weren't flattened would be used as hard-points for defense, tactical locations to be held and taken.
^^^ --- Spring Hill steps neighborhood, 1940s, Northside of Pittsburgh
^^^ --- Spring Hill neighborhood, 1940s, Northside of Pittsburgh. Most of the buildings here are made of wood or brick, some dating back as far as the 1910s or earlier. Skirmishes and house to house fight would likely occur over the few standing buildings left in these neighborhoods, with the tougher buildings used as strong-points.
Its when you get into the Downtown area that the fighting can really take on an entirely unique form vastly different than Stalingrad. Apart from actually crossing the Monongahela and Allegheny Rivers, which will absolutely be contested, the Confederates will have to fight in an urban environment with some of the tallest buildings in Pittsburgh. They would be massive strong-points and daunting objectives fight for if they're still standing, with overlapping fields of fire from multiple stories, combined with fire from neighboring buildings, and indirect plunging fire from adjacent streets from mortars. The bridges across the rivers are likely to be destroyed --- if they're not, then you better bet these will be strategic objectives that both sides will be fighting for.
If the Confederates are going to cross the river in boats, with the bridges blown up, then they will be under heavy fire from hardened and prepared positions from multiple locations and multiple stories. The Yankees will be expecting them to come, so the Confederates will have to bring up a massive amount of firepower just to suppress the opposite side --- this where point blank, close-range direct fire from artillery pieces will come in handy for the Confederates, as well as intense close air support to bomb and shoot the shit out of anything in downtown.
^^^ --- This tactic of using arty at close range to punch holes into buildings was used by Americans in the Battle of Aachen in 1944, in OTL. The city center in Aachen had a lot of hardened stone structures that withstood a lot of punishment. They would use these guns to punch holes into buildings, both as a way to suppress the enemy and to makes holes in walls for US soldiers to go in through. The Soviets did the same thing in the Battle of Berlin in 1945, using SPGs and howitzers and close range.
^^^ --- This is the Gulf Tower in Pittsburgh. Its 44 stories high and by the time of TL-191 in 1942 would be the tallest building in Pittsburgh. It was constructed in 1930 and completed in 1932, so the building would only be 10 years old upon the start of the battle. Its stone surface is made from Indiana Limestone, the same kind of stone used to make the Empire State Building, Yankee Stadium, and the Pentagon. It has as a steel frame construction with with multiple pneumatic caissons sunk to a depth of 80 feet to secure the base of the building. In the background, which is looking north, is a massive comm tower --- that tower marks the location of the Perry South and Fineview Heights, with Spring Hill off to the right and out of the picture --- high ground that the Confederates and Yankees would no doubt fight over as well.
--- The Gulf Tower may not be a bunker, but it is going to be a tough nut to crack. With 44 floors the building has enough space to fit 3,100 office workers. You can fit an entire battalion or two here, with space to spare, but you would likely not put that many in it to begin with. It would be a magnet for artillery strikes and airstrikes as well, making it a prime strategic target along with the steel factories in the city.
Buildings like this would rule the skyline in Pittsburgh and possibly add a level of verticality to the fighting. Bombings of these locations would be likely and all efforts to render them unviable as strategic points would be considered if they can't take them. By comparison to these buildings, however, the tallest structure in Stalingrad in 1942 was the infamous Grain Elevator at, perhaps, 10-14 stories. If there was to be a Stalingrad like battle for these buildings, we're looking at some intense fighting that would be entirely unique to the city and not experienced before to such ferocity. Massive casualties would be expected.
^^^ --- Mt. Washington, Winter, overlooking Downtown from the heights, 1928.
^^^ --- Downtown area, with Mt. Washington heights in the background, 1940s
Again, from the south side, I do believe that the high-ground here would be hotly contested. It would be difficult both to defend and attack, especially if the attacker has to make a river crossing from Downtown, something the Yankees will try their hardest to avoid doing once they have their backs to the river. They might keep the bridges intact, but it is also likely that they would destroy them too. The Confederates would be considering these options as well.
^^^ --- Finally, here is a little graphic I did to show how the fighting would go and in what direction. The Confederates would come from the west along the Ohio. It seems likely to me that since Patton originally wanted to surround the city he'd likely do it with a pincer movement. Confederates forces would push into the city from two directions, screening the length of the Ohio for any intact bridges so as to make logistic between the two pincers easier. The Yankees would be caught in a dangerous situation --- possibly a natural bulge with rivers at their backs on with the north side and south side, with the Downtown "Point" area forming the outline of that bulge. Although the rivers provide a barrier, Downtown itself would be exposed to flanking fire from two directions from two pincers. From the heights the Confederates would be able to see Yankee positions and troop movements. The bridges would be both a lifeline to the defenders on either side of the city, but also be a major target as well. The Yankees will be forced to make tough decisions while defending.
--- The would have to doggedly defend the Northside and Southside. Downtown would likely be a point of supplying the troopers on the opposite banks, but perhaps not. Confederate bombers, fighters, and artillery would pound this area relentlessly.
This is going to be a hard battle either way you look at it.
Its exhausting sometimes, but I try! If anyone has the books on them, you can feel free to fill in the blanks in my memory of the Battle of Pittsburgh. Perhaps the battle went a different way in the books, I can't really recall the small details at the moment. Its been a while and I don't have the complete set. I do know, or at least recall, that poison gas was also used in Pittsburgh, making an already grim battle even more hellish. Fun.
But yeah, definitely and entirely different battle in my opinion despite it being roughly similar. Its similar to Stalingrad in that it would be a major urban city to fight in and that it would have factories and other important stuff. Where it differs is in the actual fighting.
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, right?
So, Harrisburg in TL-191 is pretty important in terms of how the story plays out. Harrisburg is actually the site of the critical Battle of Camp Hill, where Robert E. Lee defeated the Army of the Potomac under McClellan. Camp Hill and Harrisburg are about 36 miles north-east of Gettysburg and about 100 miles west pf Philadelphia. Harrisburg sits along the right bank of a stretch of the Susquehanna River; Camp Hill is on the left bank.
Harrisburg was an important suppy and logistics center for the Union Army during the civl war. It had railroad lines and junctions that helped transport materials to the other union armies farther west and farther south. It was also a major mustering point, with training camps and depots to outfit new regiments and recruits for the Union Army. When Robert E. Lee defeated the Union forces here at Camp Hill just outside of the city in October, 1862, he effectively severed a major artery in the Union war effort and put himself in a position to threaten Northern cities in Pennsylvania. Philadelphia at this time was not properly defended or fortified since it was thought highly unlikely that the Confederates would strike so far north. In this timeline they were proven very wrong.
During the Great War, with Philadelphia as the de facto capital of the United States, the Confederate Army adopted the same strategy as they did in the War of Secession --- they had used a defensive strategy in the Second Mexican War despite the Army of Northern Virginia being poised to take Washington D.C.
And the Confederates nearly succeeded in this strategy in 1914. Confederate troops were once again along the Susquehanna River and just outside Harrisburg, which would likely still be major logistics and supply base for the United States. They failed however, being attacked on their southern flank by US forces trapped in a pocket around Baltimore. The stiff defense along the Susquehanna and the counter-attack out of Baltimore forced the Confederates back, essentially being this timeline's version of the "Miracle of the Marne" --- we'll call this the "Salvation on the Susquehanna".
By 1915 the Confederates were turned back and Philadelphia was out of harm's way.
Now, by 1941, things have changed yet again. And here's where the question of whether or not Harrisburg would be a better candidate for a Stalingrad like battle comes into play.
^^^ --- So as you can see Camp Hill is more like a small neighborhood or small town just outside of Harrisburg here. In the 1940s the area here around Camp Hill in our timeline was un-urbanized farmland, with a few small towns along the major roads into Harrisburg. The Susquehanna River is very wide and there are several well built bridges that span the river that go straight into Harrisburg, two of which are rail bridges for trains. In any direction, along any major highway, Harrisburg would be only 100 miles away from the capital of Philadelphia. And if it is still a major military logistics center as it was during the War of Secession, then it would remain a highly valuable strategic target.
Now, like Stalingrad, the city is placed almost entirely on one bank of a wide river. The terrain here is fairly flat, but also consists of rolling hills and is generally more forested. To the north of the city are the mountains and hills and if you follow the river south you'd come close to Baltimore. And like Stalingrad the city is a long one, tending to hug the right bank of the Susquehanna very closely. Unlike Stalingrad it is a fairly small city and quite possibly not an industrial city like Stalingrad or even Pittsburgh. However, the presence of the US Army here, if it is still a major logistics hub, means that the city itself will still be built up and developed to accommodate the US military. Railroads and well maintained highways for transportation are likely, with training facilities, barracks, ammo dumps, and logistics depots scattered across the area. The city itself would likely have businesses and entertainment to accommodate the large numbers of military personnel here so it likely Harrisburg would be an "Army Town" of some kind.
With all that to consider, its very likely the Confederates in 1941 would see this as a prime target to neutralize, bomb, or capture.
If they were to capture the city though, they would not be breaking into the city first. Unlike Stalingrad the city proper is not on the side of which the Confederates would be attacking --- it is across the river. Camp Hill and the area on the left bank opposite of Harrisburg in 1941 would either be largely farmland or small towns... or military base camps and depots with supplies.
To me if the Confederates were to attack Harrisburg in 1941 or 1942, they would likely not try to force a crossing that would take them straight into city. They would likely force a crossing further down river or further up river, using the hills as cover to the north and taking advantage of lighter lines of defense down south. From there, if the terrain features are favorable to an attacker, they would likely try to cut off Harrisburg into a pocket and tighten the noose, applying pressure on the left and right banks to squeeze the US forces here into ring they can't escape. There is the likelihood that Harrisburg can hold out since it would have supplies, but they would be surrounded on all sides and its better to breakout rather than wait for a slow death in a siege.
... Or, perhaps they would cross straight into the city, mimicking the Battle of Fredericksburg in a way, only this time the attackers crossing the river would be Confederates while the United States would be the defenders. Either way, if they were to force a crossing straight into the city, they would be under heavy from the opposite shore, from prepared positions in buildings on the opposite bank. Speed, courage, firepower, and audacity would have to be stressed for the Confederates as they make the crossing. They would have to move fast and with massive fire support from artillery, tanks, and dive bombers to try and suppress the Yankees holed up on the opposite side of the river. if they have amphibious tanks or amphibious vehicles designed for this kind of thing, then they'd better use them. If not they'd have to use boats for the crossing. The bridges across the Susquehanna would likely be blown. If not already destroyed then the Confederates would try to take them as quickly as possible. To risk sending tanks across these bridges in a single file charge would be a grave mistake in my opinion and it is likely that the Yankees would want them to do that so as to expose them as they crossed.
... actually you know what this reminds me of? the Battle of Nijmegen and the Waal Crossing during Operation Market Garden!
^^^ --- Here you go, here's a visual representation of how that crossing may look like for the Confederates if they don't have the amphiboles craft to make a proper crossing.
Harrisburg would undoubtedly be a strategic target for the Confederates to strike at on the road to Philadelphia. While there actually might not be heavy street fighting on the scale of Stalingrad, urban warfare would likely occur to push the US forces here into a tighter pocket.
The main issue however with this planned attack is that before the Confederates can even get to Harrisburg there is the issue of breaking through the heavy defensive lines in Maryland.
If the Confederates were to strike north to Harrisburg and on to the capital, it would be charging straight into the teeth of the US defenses in Maryland. This route was mentioned to be the expected route of the attack by the US Army. The Yankees were expecting an invasion to come through out of Northern Virginia and try to break through into Pennsylvania, just as they tried to do in the Great War. And so they built up forces here for an expected offensive. This would play into the United States' advantages --- they fight a war of attrition better than the Confederates and the Confederates themselves know this.
So, to me, to get to Harrisburg for an possible Stalingrad-like battle, the Confederates would have to fight a Kursk-like battle in Maryland and Northern Virginia, fighting through line and after line after line of defenses all purposely built to slow them down and whittle away their numbers.
So yes, Harrisburg, while not quite a solid candidate for a knock-down, drag-out, urban slugging match like Stalingrad and Pittsburgh, it would still be a vital target that the Confederates would need to take out and one that the Yankees would desperately try to defend. In fact, this potential battle has the feel of a Nijmegen parallel to me, but that's just my opinion.
Last edited:
Pittsburgh Plinkster: Steven Hopper
^^^ --- Corporal Steven Hopper. This is the only known photo taken of him during his military service. He is pictures here inside of a building, likely one of the few brick tenements still standing on the heights on the north-side of Pittsburgh.
Originally from a small rural town from the Appalachian Mountains in Pennsylvania, Hopper completed high school at 18, but found it difficult getting into a college. He found work as a small-time mechanic, but found himself out of work when the Great Depression hit. He did odd-job to make ends meet, eventually moving to Pittsburgh to find work as an unskilled laborer in the steel mills there.
When the war began in 1941, Hopper quit his job at the steel mill he was at and joined the army. He had not completed training while in Pennsylvania when Operation Coalscuttle began in 1942. It was here that his instructors noted his marksmanship skills and recommended him for further training as a sniper, but this was not to happen as his infantry regiment was rushed to the front to blunt the offensive into Pennsylvania. He first saw combat outside of Pittsburgh as his regiment was thrown into the action against the Northern pincer of Confederate General Patton's army trying to encircle the city. As part of General Morrell's series of counter-attacks his unit saw intense fighting and suffered heavy casualties.
At this time Private Hopper was not yet a sniper, but his marksmanship and endurance during the early days of the battle were noticed by his squad mates and commanding officers, who used him as a marksmen to pick off Confederate machine gunners. He used an un-scoped Springfield Model 1903 for his kills in the early days of the fighting, with many of his kills achieved at moderate ranges, usually against enemy machine gunner, radio operators, and tank commanders.
As the Confederates pushed into the city on the north-side, Hopper finally assumed an unofficial role as a sniper. At this time US soldiers were severely pressed for reinforcements and supplies as they were pushed back into the city. US Army logistics attempted to pour in anything and everything into the fight for Pittsburgh in order to prevent its capture. It is at this time where the US Army authorized the use of a special barrel-busting rifle for use against Confederate barrels.
^^^ --- The Winchester-William .50 Cal BBR. Weighing in at 25 pounds, the rifle used a gas tappet and rotating bolt system similar to the US carbines in use with the army at the time, making it a semi-automatic rifle. It fired .50 cal bullets from a large 10-round magazine. Although the rifle was still technically unproven in the field, testing of the gun proved its capabilities as excellent BB rifle. It was, however, rushed into production at the time of the 1942 invasion, and limited quantities were available to soldiers in Pittsburgh at the time.
Steven Hopper received this rifle by chance during a pitched battle for Spring Hill, on the northern heights of the city. Confederate barrels were used to assault the hill and lay down suppressing fire for advancing troops. Hopper and his unit were positioned in a brick tenement building and tasked to defend it. According to eye-witnesses and testimony from his spotter, PFC Jimmy Gaines, during this battle, Hopper had ran out of ammunition for his Springfield and was desperately searching for a new gun. He found the barrel-buster rifle next to a dead comrade, PFC Frank Miller, on one of the floors. Gaines was originally Miller's assistant gunner for the rifle and was wounded in the arm. Hopper, under Gaine's hasty instruction, used the rifle for the remainder of the battle. With heavy fire coming from the Confederate barrels, Hopper decided to use the rifle against them.
^^^ --- PFC Jimmy Gaines, Corporal Hopper's spotter and comrade. This is the only known photo taken of Gaines. It was taken by a news reporter in Kentucky a year after the Battle of Pittsburgh. Gaines would be killed in combat only a few hours after the picture was taken.
As it turned out his targets were a mixture of 3 Confederate SV38B "Hunter" self-propelled guns, 1 BK-39-A1 "Armadillo", and reportedly one SV38-A2 "Trooper" flamethrower barrel. Hopper moved frequently to avoid enemy fire, changing floors after every few shots, which was no small task given the weight of the gun. After two hours of fighting he was able to neutralize almost all of the tanks, severely damaging and potentially nearly killing the crew of the Confederate Armadillo. The assault bogged down and the Confederates were forced fall back without the support of their barrels. After the battle, and in recognition for his feats, Hopper's comrades referred him as a "plinkster" because of the noticeable and audible sound the bullets made when hitting the barrels he shot at. Upon inspection of the barrels after the battle, it was found that the bullets were able to easily penetrate the light skin of the SPGs and had gruesome effect on the unfortunate crew inside.
After this small battle for Spring Hill, Hopper kept the barrel-buster rifle with him, finding it effective as a long range sniping rifle against special targets. Gaines stayed on as his spotter after recovering from his wounds and the pair were an unofficial sniper team from this point on.
During the Battle of Pittsburgh on the north side, Hopper gained an infamous reputation as a sniper, picking off barrel crewmen and barrel commanders with his barrel-buster rifle. He and Gaines were assigned special missions all along the north-side whenever an assault was expected to have barrels accompanying infantry. He'd be used to pick off barrel crewmen and barrel commanders. Due to the nature of the fighting the Confederates frequently used their light and medium skinned SPGs to attack targets in buildings, so Hopper and Gaines were used to find ways to neutralize these threats, which they often did. Gaines also confirmed that the barrel-buster rifle was sometimes used on human targets to bloody effect because the targets were behind cover.
Gaines also testified that he an Hopper engaged in a single sniper duel with a Confederate in the more urbanized Downtown area in which they had to used the un-scoped barrel-buster. With multiple vantage points in many of the tall ruined buildings, finding the sniper was an arduous affair. Hours were spent moving from building to building amid intense combat for multiple floors. Smoke and fires made the environment all the more difficult to find the sniper and in more than one occasion both Gaines and Hopper had fight in close quarters to clear out rooms for better vantage points. By the time they had found the sniper night had already settled in and the only light available was from the fires. The kill was made from a floor opposite from the building the Confederate sniper was one. Gaines was barely able to spotted the target moving from room to room in the dark. Hopper took the shot with the barrel-buster instead of the M1903, having penetrated through a metal desk the sniper was hiding behind.
Hopper would not survive the Battle of Pittsburgh. During the winter months as Confederate forces in the city were surrounded and cut off from supplies, Hopper and Gaines fought on as they always had. Hopper took a stray bullet through an artery in his left leg during a close quarters skirmish, where he bleed out out and died. Gaines was there when he died, taking his dog-tags for identification, but having to leave his body behind as the Confederates overran their position. Gaines took the barrel-buster rifle with him as well.
Corporal Steven Hopper accumulated 108 kills during the Battle of Pittsburgh and is credited with the kill of at least one Confederate sniper. He was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star for his actions in the battle years after the war had ended.
Jimmy Gaines would later be killed in Kentucky in 1943, still carrying the barrel-buster rifle he took from Pittsburgh with him.
Since the rifle's introduction into the military, the Winchester-Williams .50 Cal BBR took on the nick-name of "Plinkster" thanks to the Battle of Pittsburgh and role it played. The nickname turned out to be highly popular and US soldiers in Pittsburgh took calling rifle by that name since its use by Corporal Hopper. The rifle itself would be discontinued from use with the US Army in 1945.
^^^ --- Corporal Steven Hopper. This is the only known photo taken of him during his military service. He is pictures here inside of a building, likely one of the few brick tenements still standing on the heights on the north-side of Pittsburgh.
Originally from a small rural town from the Appalachian Mountains in Pennsylvania, Hopper completed high school at 18, but found it difficult getting into a college. He found work as a small-time mechanic, but found himself out of work when the Great Depression hit. He did odd-job to make ends meet, eventually moving to Pittsburgh to find work as an unskilled laborer in the steel mills there.
When the war began in 1941, Hopper quit his job at the steel mill he was at and joined the army. He had not completed training while in Pennsylvania when Operation Coalscuttle began in 1942. It was here that his instructors noted his marksmanship skills and recommended him for further training as a sniper, but this was not to happen as his infantry regiment was rushed to the front to blunt the offensive into Pennsylvania. He first saw combat outside of Pittsburgh as his regiment was thrown into the action against the Northern pincer of Confederate General Patton's army trying to encircle the city. As part of General Morrell's series of counter-attacks his unit saw intense fighting and suffered heavy casualties.
At this time Private Hopper was not yet a sniper, but his marksmanship and endurance during the early days of the battle were noticed by his squad mates and commanding officers, who used him as a marksmen to pick off Confederate machine gunners. He used an un-scoped Springfield Model 1903 for his kills in the early days of the fighting, with many of his kills achieved at moderate ranges, usually against enemy machine gunner, radio operators, and tank commanders.
As the Confederates pushed into the city on the north-side, Hopper finally assumed an unofficial role as a sniper. At this time US soldiers were severely pressed for reinforcements and supplies as they were pushed back into the city. US Army logistics attempted to pour in anything and everything into the fight for Pittsburgh in order to prevent its capture. It is at this time where the US Army authorized the use of a special barrel-busting rifle for use against Confederate barrels.
^^^ --- The Winchester-William .50 Cal BBR. Weighing in at 25 pounds, the rifle used a gas tappet and rotating bolt system similar to the US carbines in use with the army at the time, making it a semi-automatic rifle. It fired .50 cal bullets from a large 10-round magazine. Although the rifle was still technically unproven in the field, testing of the gun proved its capabilities as excellent BB rifle. It was, however, rushed into production at the time of the 1942 invasion, and limited quantities were available to soldiers in Pittsburgh at the time.
Steven Hopper received this rifle by chance during a pitched battle for Spring Hill, on the northern heights of the city. Confederate barrels were used to assault the hill and lay down suppressing fire for advancing troops. Hopper and his unit were positioned in a brick tenement building and tasked to defend it. According to eye-witnesses and testimony from his spotter, PFC Jimmy Gaines, during this battle, Hopper had ran out of ammunition for his Springfield and was desperately searching for a new gun. He found the barrel-buster rifle next to a dead comrade, PFC Frank Miller, on one of the floors. Gaines was originally Miller's assistant gunner for the rifle and was wounded in the arm. Hopper, under Gaine's hasty instruction, used the rifle for the remainder of the battle. With heavy fire coming from the Confederate barrels, Hopper decided to use the rifle against them.
^^^ --- PFC Jimmy Gaines, Corporal Hopper's spotter and comrade. This is the only known photo taken of Gaines. It was taken by a news reporter in Kentucky a year after the Battle of Pittsburgh. Gaines would be killed in combat only a few hours after the picture was taken.
As it turned out his targets were a mixture of 3 Confederate SV38B "Hunter" self-propelled guns, 1 BK-39-A1 "Armadillo", and reportedly one SV38-A2 "Trooper" flamethrower barrel. Hopper moved frequently to avoid enemy fire, changing floors after every few shots, which was no small task given the weight of the gun. After two hours of fighting he was able to neutralize almost all of the tanks, severely damaging and potentially nearly killing the crew of the Confederate Armadillo. The assault bogged down and the Confederates were forced fall back without the support of their barrels. After the battle, and in recognition for his feats, Hopper's comrades referred him as a "plinkster" because of the noticeable and audible sound the bullets made when hitting the barrels he shot at. Upon inspection of the barrels after the battle, it was found that the bullets were able to easily penetrate the light skin of the SPGs and had gruesome effect on the unfortunate crew inside.
After this small battle for Spring Hill, Hopper kept the barrel-buster rifle with him, finding it effective as a long range sniping rifle against special targets. Gaines stayed on as his spotter after recovering from his wounds and the pair were an unofficial sniper team from this point on.
During the Battle of Pittsburgh on the north side, Hopper gained an infamous reputation as a sniper, picking off barrel crewmen and barrel commanders with his barrel-buster rifle. He and Gaines were assigned special missions all along the north-side whenever an assault was expected to have barrels accompanying infantry. He'd be used to pick off barrel crewmen and barrel commanders. Due to the nature of the fighting the Confederates frequently used their light and medium skinned SPGs to attack targets in buildings, so Hopper and Gaines were used to find ways to neutralize these threats, which they often did. Gaines also confirmed that the barrel-buster rifle was sometimes used on human targets to bloody effect because the targets were behind cover.
Gaines also testified that he an Hopper engaged in a single sniper duel with a Confederate in the more urbanized Downtown area in which they had to used the un-scoped barrel-buster. With multiple vantage points in many of the tall ruined buildings, finding the sniper was an arduous affair. Hours were spent moving from building to building amid intense combat for multiple floors. Smoke and fires made the environment all the more difficult to find the sniper and in more than one occasion both Gaines and Hopper had fight in close quarters to clear out rooms for better vantage points. By the time they had found the sniper night had already settled in and the only light available was from the fires. The kill was made from a floor opposite from the building the Confederate sniper was one. Gaines was barely able to spotted the target moving from room to room in the dark. Hopper took the shot with the barrel-buster instead of the M1903, having penetrated through a metal desk the sniper was hiding behind.
Hopper would not survive the Battle of Pittsburgh. During the winter months as Confederate forces in the city were surrounded and cut off from supplies, Hopper and Gaines fought on as they always had. Hopper took a stray bullet through an artery in his left leg during a close quarters skirmish, where he bleed out out and died. Gaines was there when he died, taking his dog-tags for identification, but having to leave his body behind as the Confederates overran their position. Gaines took the barrel-buster rifle with him as well.
Corporal Steven Hopper accumulated 108 kills during the Battle of Pittsburgh and is credited with the kill of at least one Confederate sniper. He was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star for his actions in the battle years after the war had ended.
Jimmy Gaines would later be killed in Kentucky in 1943, still carrying the barrel-buster rifle he took from Pittsburgh with him.
Since the rifle's introduction into the military, the Winchester-Williams .50 Cal BBR took on the nick-name of "Plinkster" thanks to the Battle of Pittsburgh and role it played. The nickname turned out to be highly popular and US soldiers in Pittsburgh took calling rifle by that name since its use by Corporal Hopper. The rifle itself would be discontinued from use with the US Army in 1945.
I have to say that the most delightful part of FILLING THE GAPS - and what I think we can safely describe as "Allied Threads" given the amount of cross pollination that goes on! - is getting to work out how events in this timeline would have resembled & been distinguished from Our Own History; your article on Pittsburg is an especially interesting illustration of this.
(Really, it makes me wish that we could get some hooks into the Osprey Publishing cohort of artists - or just acquire an unlimited budget - so that we could use this data to whip up something more than the sketches currently within our means).
On the other hand he would doubtless have wanted to sell books in France, as well as North America, and making the French Government that fought the Second Great War to such a disastrous conclusion completely distinct and separate from the French Government that ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THE NAZIS (cue enduring controversy of the sort that wrecks sales whenever some writer happens to evoke it, deliberately or accidentally) was probably a sensible move on Doctor Turtledove's part.
Many have tried, few have been able to finish what they started - at least not on AlternateHistory.com - probably because they changed so much that at some point they decided "The heck with it, this isn't Turtledove it's ALL ME - let's make some Money!" and published their own version things as a novel in its own right.
I have to say that the most delightful part of FILLING THE GAPS - and what I think we can safely describe as "Allied Threads" given the amount of cross pollination that goes on! - is getting to work out how events in this timeline would have resembled & been distinguished from Our Own History; your article on Pittsburg is an especially interesting illustration of this.
(Really, it makes me wish that we could get some hooks into the Osprey Publishing cohort of artists - or just acquire an unlimited budget - so that we could use this data to whip up something more than the sketches currently within our means).
Oh right. I probably should have put all that stuff in that thread huh
I will go and do that.Well its just speculation on my part, its not canon or anything. I imagine that if anyone else has a different thought on how Pittsburgh was fought they'd have an idea too. I just looked up archival photos from the Pittsburgh website and looked up information on the construction of certain buildings around the 1920s and 1940s. Plus did some digging through tourist websites that specifically talk about neighborhoods and little quirks about the city --- the "Steps of Pittsburgh" bit is what really surprised me, with staircases being officially classified as streets by the city because the hills are so steep. This would confuse the hell out of Confederates if they had a map of the area, running across what should be a road, but finding out its a staircase
Could add a whole new phrase to the lexicon of war too when applied to Pittsburgh - "House-by-house" "room-by-room" "step-by-step" - (literally fighting over the steps of Pittsburgh, just to gain the high ground on top)
Anyway thanks.
The first King of Ukraine ( Vasyl I Vyshyvanyi of Ukraine), and nickname of the "Red Prince", Wilhelm came to embrace Polish and Ukrainian culture and sought to improve the conditions of his new countrymen and build up the nation, most notable condemning the pogroms in Poland and let fleeing Jews an place in Ukraine. However, his efforts was often undermined by German and Austrian-Hungarian interests and the Russian Civil War.
During the Second Great War, many Ukrainians was loyal to King Wilhelm while others saw him as an 'puppet of Germany and Austria'. He would arrive in Kiev in triumph, calling on the heroics of 'Loyal Ukrainians' in helping giving the Germans towards victory.
During the Second Great War, many Ukrainians was loyal to King Wilhelm while others saw him as an 'puppet of Germany and Austria'. He would arrive in Kiev in triumph, calling on the heroics of 'Loyal Ukrainians' in helping giving the Germans towards victory.